Mike Weaver vs Ron Lyle

They actually had a common opponent in 1979, Scott LeDoux. Lyle had to get off the deck to rally for an SD in May (where each guy was repeatedly wobbled), LeDoux had his gift draw with Norton in August, then in November, Mike jabbed his ears off in Bloomington for what was truthfully an easy 12 round shutout (even decking Scott with one of those hard jabs for a knockdown which was uncredited by the hometown referee).

Lyle was twice taken to school by Young. He's not outboxing Hercules, and he's not outlasting Weaver over the Championship Distance. Mike opened the 12th and final round with LeDoux by dancing around, simply to show he could do it after 11 rounds of drastic superiority. He also got up from the biggest head shot Larry Holmes ever dropped anybody with to last 44 seconds into the next round.

Yes, Mike was successfully smothered for 13 of 14 rounds by the huge and physically powerful John Tate, but Tate had proved his Championship Distance stamina against Coetzee and had vastly superior skills to Lyle, plus youth Ron never shared.

Bonecrusher may be the closest thing HW boxing had to Lyle after Lynn Ball ended Ron as a contender. James has been described by some opponents as BOTH the hardest punching AND physically strongest man they faced. (Lyle was rated as comparable to Foreman in both respects by their common opponents.) In 1986, Bonecrusher caught the slow starting Hercules in the opening round (Lyle chose to never do this to anybody), but in their 1990 rematch, Mike did something nobody else ever did against Smith. He actually stood up to enough punches from Bonecrusher to drop a 12 round UD. (From 1986 to 1992, this was the only time in 13 wins that anybody went the distance with Smith. Weirdly, the next guy who heard the final bell in a loss to Bonecrusher was former two time Greg Page Kryptonite Mark Wills. Even weirder, Page himself actually did decision Smith a few months later in 1992.)

Ron's best decision win was UD 12 Bonavena (Ringo would rebound to UD 12 Middleton and never lose again) and the classic war with Shavers where he had to struggle to beat the count, then get saved by the bell ahead of getting punched again.

Comparing their careers in general, Ron wasn't great in rematches. He took out Middleton in three, then went the limit with Larry, decisioned Peralta in ten, only to draw with Goyo in their rematch, and the second go with Young wasn't helpful either.

Mike avenged his decision loss to Ward by stopping him twice in nine and should've regained his prematurely stolen WBA title from Dokes in their Don King rigged "draw," so he went the distance twice against guys who previously stopped him in one, EXTREMELY unusual and demonstrative of mental resiliency. (The maxim in boxing as Gil Clancy once expressed it as a television analyst is that typically, when one guy knocks out another, that result will be repeated in any rematches. To open his career, Weaver also went against this with Howard KO Smith, who would ultimately run afoul of peak Shavers in 1977.)

Weaver decisions Lyle over ten or 12, but stops him in the Championship Rounds. Not a war, but more taciturn. Ron simply didn't have the gas to last 15 with Mike.

 

No, what actually happened was that with the bout clearly clinched on the cards, Ace Miller told John to simply back off for the final three minutes, and Tate was always diligent about listening to Ace. Very stupid of Miller to instruct John against what had enabled him to clinch the decision so easily. The previous time Mike had been able to unload away from the ropes, he uncorked jabs then buckled Tate with a left hook in round 12. Just spend the last three minutes continuing to smother Weaver against the ropes. That's all that was needed. Then, there would've been a huge debate over who the world's best HW truly was. Holmes had stopped Mike, but did not dominate him like that through 44 minutes and 15 seconds.

The final outcome was all Ace Miller's fault, yet he didn't own it the way Bronx Davey Moore's trainer and manager Leon Washington owned his charge's defeat to Duran. (What we didn't know at the time didn't come to light until four years after Moore's death, that Davey entered the ring with Duran just two days after undergoing oral surgery. He was actually handled by the Colombo crime family which bet big on Duran with this knowledge. In the post fight after Duran, that's why Washington took responsibility, but what was Leon going to do otherwise? Get tortured to death? Let's face it. We all became enamored of a rotten and stupid "sport," one that also kills people prematurely. For whatever it's worth though, all four of Moore's non DQ losses came against world titlists.)

 

We find ourselves disagreeing again, we'd be worried if we weren't!!!

The fight wasn't suddenly lost because Tate suddenly not keeping his right hand up. Weaver starting being more dangerous in the 12th. He lands a massive left hook which puts Tate in trouble and chases him for the rest of the round, landing some other solid shots as well. Tate had been dominating until that point and Weaver had been pretty flat. After hurting Tate his aggression and intent rose quite dramatically while Tate's one sided success, certainly in the 12th after that hook, disappeared. The crowd were worried enough to start chanting Tate's name in an effort to get him going. He looked pretty weary returning to his corner.

You can hear Weaver's corner imploring him to "back him up" in the 13th as Tate is less dominant and willing to let his hands go. Tho Weaver could have been busier and Tate may have jabbed his way to the round there has been a lessening of the momentum Tate had in the earlier rounds, a subtle change in dynamics.

The 14th saw Weaver deducted a point earlier for a blatant low blow but he caught Tate late in the round with another big left hook and was getting closer and throwing some punches with bad intentions and even if they were struggling to find a home Tate had a lot more danger to negotiate in a competitive round. He'd be winning most rounds easily for 2/3 of the fight but 12-14 saw Weaver far more competitive.

Weaver comes out straight at Tate in the 15th and puts him right into a corner. He knows full well he needs a KO. The commentator notes Weaver is more active in the 15th than he was in the 5th. He's heaping the pressure on and giving Tate no room to breath. Tate can't get away from him unlike previously. Tate's cornered yet again, and then again. BOOM career, for all intents and purposes, over.

Tate lost a bit of sting on his punches from the 12th on. He was definitely tiring a bit and he was finally shipping some punishment. The 15th saw Weaver at his most aggressive and Tate just couldn't keep all of them out and a combination of being tired, shipping some solid blows in the previous few rounds and having a suspect jaw conspired to have him deeply outcold.

 

I can go along with this after decades of not having seen it in its entirety (I only viewed the live broadcast from beginning to end), because it's true that John was doing all the exertion he didn't give Mike an opportunity to expend. (Bonecrusher-Bruno was like that in the sense Frank was doing all the work while Smith claimed afterwards that he was "tight." Bonecrusher then pulled the same crap with Tyson, onky this time waited until the last seconds to unload. You can make a case in both instances for stopping those bouts in favor of Bruno and Mike because James wasn't trying to compete though. Tate, on the other hand, hadn't been allowing Weaver the opportunity to compete. In recent years, Hercules has been an outspoken advocate for the Championship Distance.)

 

Your post wasn't up when i hit send, i'd been sitting on mine and reliving some rounds.

Just to make sure you didn't mistake that my reply was to S&S?

But if Ace Miller instructed Tate to hold off he sure didn't help his cause as he could no longer evade a charging Weaver with footwork.

 

Yeah JT, I did understand that it was addressed to S&S and apologize for any unwanted intrusion, but it is also indeed true that Ace Miller instructed that. I vividly remember the quotes from newspaper coverage the following day, as that massive card was huge mainstream news in the States. Everybody at work and school was saying, "I couldn't believe it! He had the fight WON!" Me personally? I, like many others, didn't think that highly of Tate after seeing what Stevenson did to him in Montreal, and his previous bout with Coeztee was broadcast live via satellite on NBC, so we'd also seen John get buckled in South Africa. (Still, we thought he'd just be able to physically smother Mike back against the ropes.)

Holmes? Although Larry got decked by Shavers, we wouldn't see the Assassin really unsteady until Snipes, who had shown no such potential with Cummings or LHW EMM shocked the world. Eddie didn't take a backwards step against Renaldo. (Overlooked in Holmes-Snipes is also the fact that nobody else would stop Renaldo until his career finale. He proved to be a pretty durable customer.)

 

I was just talking from what I remembered. I think that was one of the first fights I watched through to completion, but yeah, I'm wrong here.

 

No intrusion at all mate, you can slip in on any post. Heaven knows i do it to you pretty regularly. Yeah Tate had shown a few little hints tho he came back good. Snipes was considered a lackey but ended up being a worthy long time contender who was, as you say, quite durable. The behaviour of Gonzalez in Snipes last fight had me rushing to watch Bowe obliterate him right after.

 

I'll go w Weaver. Lyle would need to stop him early. Yes, Mike was inconsistent. I'm sure Ron could win if they fought a few times. Mike's durability, stamina, and punching power over the course of 15 rounds is a major challenge to me.

 

Always enjoy our exchanges.

I've never seen that last fight of Snipes, but you've piqued my interest.

 

Ditto mate.

I just remember Gonzalez acting in such a way that made me really angry. I went straight to Gonzo's record to see who had given him the best flogging. Bowe was quite savage on him.