Most shameless title defences of all time

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Devon, Sep 22, 2024.


  1. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Not sure after the fact considerations should be given that much weight. If a keeper dove right & the penalty taker shot right but missed, that’s still a poor read on the keeper’s behalf. Holmes openly stated he wanted someone easier than Thomas. That’s pretty terrible in my book.

    & I would hesitate to directly compare competition choices of a near-peak Holmes with a 46-49 year old Foreman. We’re not making any allowances for age!? It’s not a small gulf.
     
  2. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    His reign was too short to be sure, but he had to work a lot less harder per fight than Holmes did. That gives me good reason to imagine he’d be active. People here are questioning whether he could go on Holmes’ long run (I really don’t see why not, given the meagre opposition), but as short as Foreman’s first reign was, Holmes himself would have a hard time replicating it. Imagining him at his peak in January of 1973, he’d have to beat Frazier for the title (clear stylistic & experience disadvantage), Roman (no problem), 1974 Norton & 1974 Ali. I would not give a peak Holmes much better than a 50-50 shot at those big three at that stage of their careers, & a somewhat less than 50% shot at beating all three effectively back-to-back.

    Of course, though Foreman would individually be a very big favourite over all of Holmes’ title opposition, his odds would decrease over time, too. Below 50%, though? I doubt it.
     
  3. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Foreman lost decisively to Jimmy Young 8-4 who less than a year later was losing to the likes of Ossie Ocasio.

    Foreman had issues vs movers/boxers Peralta, Holyfield, Morrison, Schulz, Young, etc.

    Whilst the 80s was an inconsistent era there was still plenty of talented Heavyweights who if they got in form on the night could be troublesome for alot of Heavyweights.

    Foreman’s record against top 10 ranked Heavyweights is 6-4 I believe and you'd expect Foreman to go 20-0 over 7 years against numerous ranked Heavyweights without blemish ? I don't think so.
     
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  4. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Forget Foreman’s title reign then if you want to excuse Foreman’s poor competition after the Moorer fight because of his age.

    How about the fact he comeback in 1987 and only fought 3 ranked opponents up until he retired in 1997 which is a decade and he was 1-2 against top 10 Heavyweights.

    I think Foreman is overrated respect to him for his short reign in the 70s which had some very notable wins over Norton, Frazier. But when you delve into his actual resume there isn't much depth there after that brief period when Foreman was on top of the world for 1 or 2 years.
     
  5. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Not that Young makes an appearance anyway since he wasn’t a challenger in Holmes’ reign, but I think most would agree with me when I say prime Foreman would have taken Young out.

    The Peralta fights were an inexperienced Foreman & you can see the different in ring cutting between those bouts &, say, vs Norton or Ali clear as day. That was a green Foreman. I won’t even entertain the fights you mentioned when he was obese & in his 40’s since they’re not relevant to what’s on the table here.

    These are Holmes’ challengers, plus who he beat to win the crown…

    Norton
    Evangelista
    Weaver
    Ocasio
    Shavers
    Zanon
    Jones
    LeDoux
    Ali
    Berbick
    Spinks
    Snipes
    Cooney
    Cobb
    Rodriguez
    Witherspoon
    Frank
    Frazier
    Smith
    Bey
    Williams

    Individually, there isn’t one fighter there you’d give more than a 10-15% chance of beating a prime Foreman (most, markedly less). Of course, we’d have to consider Foreman won’t be in his prime toward the back end of that run, & we have to allow for a fighter getting increasingly complacent, & thus the chance for an upset. With these considerations, of course Foreman couldn’t hold his 90% likelihood of victory ratio intact all the way, but would the odds of that run ever dip below 50%? I doubt they would. He was much more intimidating than Holmes & could put this opposition into a shell mentally. He could end fights quickly & wear down more slowly as a consequence. &, where Holmes’ age caught up with him against Spinks, Foreman could still call on power to end fights after he aged, which Holmes could not. So while it’s no sure thing of course, I really can’t see the argument Foreman couldn’t - or would be unlikely to - replicate Holmes’ title run.

    If anything, Holmes might struggle to replicate Foreman’s first title reign, short as it was. Beating 1973 Frazier, prime Norton & 1974 Ali? I’d give a peak Holmes at best a 50-50 shot of dusting all three of these guys back to back. Probably less than 50-50, if I’m being honest, since Norton especially would be nightmare fuel.
     
  6. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I really haven’t defended his title reign after Moorer, to be fair. It was very poor, but I don’t mark him down too severely because he was 46-49. That isn’t the same as Holmes being 33-34, especially when he was in his prime up until about age 33. Just beating Moorer was enough. I’m mildly surprised Holmes didn’t drop dead of literal envy when it happened.
     
  7. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What you have to take into account is that a younger Foreman was a troubled soul and it took him 10 years to get the Ali loss/Young loss and all the other mental demons he had out of his system.

    I just can't picture a Young Foreman going through 20 opponents and what 14 of them ranked ? Without a blemish somewhere. I mean yeah in a fantasy scenario if you had peak Foreman vs all of Holmes's opposition without any wear and tear would Foreman be a significant favourite ? Absolutely. But in a real life scenario over 7 years with a young Foreman who had his demons being able to stay fully focused for 7 years ? I can’t see it myself.

    As for Holmes the Norton fight could go either way, I think a prime Frazier beats Holmes but I'm not sure about the version of Frazier who Foreman fought was not in the best of shape. Could a peak Holmes beat a 1974 version of Ali ? I think so yes. And I'd also pick Holmes to beat the likes of Jimmy Young aswell.
     
  8. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    But he wasn't active as 'champion', that's a fact based on Zaire being his 3rd defence in the time Larry clocked up 6, so you don't need to imagine anything. The idea that had he become champ in 1978, he'd have done what Holmes did clearly isn't based on his short tenure as champion and how busy he was then (i.e. not at all).

    Maybe, he could. I could ask Jimmy Young what he thinks of this, but he isn't returning my calls. Y'know, Jimmy, he's the one that Holmes was pencilled in to fight in late 78/early 79 but fought the guy who outpointed him instead.


    Of course, but most top 10/15 all-time greats would be favourite over that era. and many other eras. The idea that George- or anyone- just KO's 20 fighters in next to no time over a 7 year period, just wouldn't happen, because, well, it never happens. It's possible he could go on a long winning streak of course, but he'd have plenty of really tough nights, like every long-term champion did- and always will.
     
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  9. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He was unravelled mentally by Ali, doubtless that’s true. But who’s going to bring him down that way in Holmes’ reign? Witherspoon? LeDoux? :lol: The thought as I typed this made me laugh, not at you, just at the notion that a Bey or an Ocasio are going to fill Ali’s place & expose Foreman. There is no one there to test him mentally, & precious few who would physically.

    Sounds like we’re in agreement on Holmes in Foreman’s shoes. 1973 Frazier wasn’t at his peak but he has a clear style advantage on Holmes, & never once struggled for stamina. The younger Norton is every chance to beat Holmes & 1974 Ali would be close to a 50-50 fight as well. Taking them all on with Roman as the only gimme, I’d probably give Holmes slightly less than a 50% shot, truth be told. But I can’t see Foreman dropping below 50% in Holmes’ reign.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2024
  10. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    Jimmy would have been, but lost to Ocasio. Hardly Larry's fault.

    Maybe. But as Boxing News said when it was rumoured George would be fighting Young in early 77 (and remember, this was after a strong year in 1976, when he became the #1 contender again)...

    “If George Foreman ever takes a match with Jimmy Young it could be a big mistake. Foreman is a tremendous puncher and probably the strongest heavyweight around today, but Young moves in and out, clutches and grabs, and Big George gets awful frustrated early. He could have a very hard time catching a Young with a solid shot…It could be a bad match for Foreman now or anytime”.

    Not everyone was taken with George just KO'ing his opponents in no time, hence why 3 of the 5 staff that previewed The Rumble, picked George to lose to Ali.
     
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  11. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You scoff at Witherspoon beating Foreman but Witherspoon would be Foreman’s 3rd or 4th toughest opponent of his career.

    Witherspoon had a good defence, good chin, similar size to Foreman, and also had a good right hand himself that could trouble Foreman.

    Foreman would be fighting a peak Witherspoon close to his mid 30s after being a champion for 5 years if we are following the same timeline as Holmes.
     
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  12. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    You listed 21 guys. I think you'd give the average guy a 5% chance of winning (I'd go higher). According to the calculations, Foreman would have a 0.068% chance of beating all 21 guys in a row, discounting the chance that he retires early from an injury, prison sentence, or converstation with Jesus in the showers. Congrats.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+the+probability+of+a+95%+favorite+winning+21+times+in+a+row?&client=tablet-android-samsung-rvo1&sca_esv=ca6cebca9c503e50&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIJnwEetpQRcF0GRk8ZnvlSJTpG2QQ:1727640884534&ei=NLX5ZpGYIJix5NoPvJ-M2Qc&oq=what+is+the+probability+of+a+95%+favorite+winning+21+times+in+a+row?&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIkR3aGF0IGlzIHRoZSBwcm9iYWJpbGl0eSBvZiBhIDk1JSBmYXZvcml0ZSB3aW5uaW5nIDIxIHRpbWVzIGluIGEgcm93P0jytQFQjApYhLMBcAR4AJABAZgBzwGgAZtJqgEHMzYuNDYuMbgBA8gBAPgBAZgCRKACjT6oAg_CAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgIEECMYJ8ICBRAhGKABwgIFECEYnwXCAggQABgWGB4YD8ICCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgsQABiABBiRAhiKBcICBhAAGBYYHsICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAsICBxAjGCcY6gLCAgoQIxiABBgnGIoFwgILEAAYgAQYsQMYgwHCAhEQLhiABBixAxjRAxiDARjHAcICChAAGIAEGEMYigXCAg4QABiABBixAxiDARiKBcICDhAAGIAEGJECGLEDGIoFwgIEEAAYA8ICBRAhGKsCwgIEEB4YCpgDD4gGAZAGCJIHBzI3LjQwLjGgB5mkAw&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp
     
  13. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I am positing what would happen if Foreman took on Holmes’ reign, so he’d be making defenses at the same rate. Young has no place in the conversation, I don’t know why he keeps getting brought up. Most would pick a prime Foreman to beat Young, & I would too.

    Who would you pick to interrupt Foreman among Holmes’ title challengers? Where would you say he slips up?
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2024
  14. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That was written with the knowledge Foreman wasn’t the same after Zaire. Young would always be a danger match, but it was a plainly different Foreman in 1977 than it had been in 1973-74.
     
  15. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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