What was wrong with Jess Willard and Primo Carnera?

Taking each in turn.

I am in no hurry to form conclusions about Dubois.

Now potentially, but not at his best.

Potentially.

For now I am going to say yes.

 

They also both lost their titles to two of the hardest punchers of the first half of the 1900 s.

 

I wouldn't say they're underrated so much as those they prop up are overrated.

Both come from chaotic eras and people are right to be suspicious of their status as greatest of their time let alone abilities.

In my opinion we exaggerate the clarity of a great champion's time and by juxtaposition the fair judgment of those not so blessed is seen as unfair. The reality, perhaps, isn't we should elevated Willard and Carnera to be closer to Dempsey and Louis, but perhaps, lower the great ones back to something resembling reality.

I said in the Max-Jeff thread the suspicion of Schmeling's ratings hardly ever gets discussed. However, Primo, it's hard to talk about him without someone claiming he was a mafia champion and nothing more. I say, fair, even if untrue. Likewise Joe Louis may have only been the legend he was because he was the best America had during a propaganda war.

There are very, very, few outliers you can't do this sort of almost shitty level of skepticism to. The ones who really impress us,. and let's be honest it's the ones who really impress our eyes, it's a little bit harder to be real about and accept they might have been as much show or more as the ones who don't.

 

They were like a Poor man's Wlad.

Anyway, were they fighting in the mediocre modern era I suspect they would be very succesful champions with long reigns just applying the Wlad's method: grab and clinch, grab and clich, grab and clich....

 

That wouldn't work against modern big men.

 

For a guy whose heart wasn't in it (Willard) and a guy who lacked durability (Carnera) ... both Willard and Carnera kept getting up while suffering two of the worst beatings any heavyweight champion has ever taken (those being Willard against Dempsey and Carnera against Baer).

I know those were labels stamped on them long ago, and lots of us have repeated the same over the years.

But, in the nearly 100 years since both Willard and Carnera fought, lots (and I mean LOTS) of fighters with reputations for being consummate tough guys have quit under much less duress and with far fewer (or no) physical injuries.

Duran, Liston, Tyson, Chavez, and far too many others included.

You gotta have heart and durability to take beatings like those and keep getting up, especially given the fighters laying the beating on them.

 

Either did perennial dud Vitali that hasn’t stopped this forum drooling over Dr Robotic.

 

So what did they both have, and what did they both lack?

Willard

Willard had amazing fundamentals.

He is almost a unicorn among superheavyweights, in that he had power, durability, stamina, and even heart.

So how the f*** did he not clean house in that era of midgets?

The answer is that he lacked killer instinct, took a lazy approach to fighting, and was probably the worst fighter on the planet from the neck up.

If we could resolve those issues, then frankly we could probably work with his technical ability, and chosen style.

 

So what did they both have, and what did they both lack?

Carnera

Carnera was obviously a physical monster, but his power was nothing special for a man his size, albeit formidable to the cruiserweights he was up against.

His durability was also not of the highest order, albeit he was getting dropped by elite fighters, and he kept getting up.

From a technical standpoint, he was actually pretty good, and he could move for a man his size.

On top of being big, and technically sound, he showed his ability to adapt if a fight was not going his way.

He had heart in spades, and was very consistent.

If a man was not as good as him, they were basically going to loose.

In the end he was an overachiever, who probably maxed out his potential.

 

Yes but he also beat guys like Jack Sharkey and Tommy Loughran and Uzcudun. Whatever fixes he might’ve had, he developed a level of skill and beat good fighters.

 

And against the odds he KO’d the great Jack Sharkey!

 

Try not to mix up your Jack's.

 

I didn’t oh great forum elder…

 

You flatter me sir.