Could George Foreman make it undefeated through Larry Holmes title opponents?

Maybe - to me Larry just climbed in for money, I don’t think Homer cared about the result, Larry also was the first? guy to show us some hints on how to beat Tyson, he really had the right plan I think the Tyson fight made him realise he had a lot left tbh.

 

Copied from Wikiperdia:
50 Loss 48–2 Michael Spinks SD 15 Apr 19, 1986 Las Vegas Hilton, Winchester, Nevada, U.S. For IBF and The Ring heavyweight titles
49 Loss 48–1 Michael Spinks UD 15 Sep 21, 1985 Riviera, Winchester, Nevada, U.S. Lost IBF and The Ring heavyweight titles
48 Win 48–0 Carl Williams UD 15 May 20, 1985 Lawlor Events Center, Reno, Nevada, U.S. Retained IBF and The Ring heavyweight titles
47 Win 47–0 David Bey TKO 10 (15), 2:58 Mar 15, 1985 Riviera, Winchester, Nevada, U.S. Retained IBF and The Ring heavyweight titles
46 Win 46–0 James Smith TKO 12 (15), 2:10 Nov 9, 1984 Riviera, Winchester, Nevada, U.S. Retained IBF and The Ring heavyweight titles
45 Win 45–0 Marvis Frazier TKO 1 (12), 2:57 Nov 25, 1983 Caesars Palace, Paradise, Nevada, U.S. Retained The Ring heavyweight title
44 Win 44–0 Scott Frank TKO 5 (12), 1:28 Sep 10, 1983 Broadway by the Bay Theater, Atlantic City, New Jersey, U.S. Retained WBC and The Ring heavyweight titles
43 Win 43–0 Tim Witherspoon SD 12 May 20, 1983 Dunes, Paradise, Nevada, U.S. Retained WBC and The Ring heavyweight titles
42 Win 42–0 Lucien Rodriguez UD 12 Mar 27, 1983 Watres Armory, Scranton, Pennsylvania, U.S. Retained WBC and The Ring heavyweight titles
41 Win 41–0 Randall Cobb UD 15 Nov 26, 1982 Astrodome, Houston, Texas, U.S. Retained WBC and The Ring heavyweight titles
40 Win 40–0 Gerry Cooney TKO 13 (15), 2:52 Jun 11, 1982 Caesars Palace, Paradise, Nevada, U.S. Retained WBC and The Ring heavyweight titles
39 Win 39–0 Renaldo Snipes TKO 11 (15), 1:05 Nov 6, 1981 Civic Arena, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, U.S. Retained WBC and The Ring heavyweight titles
38 Win 38–0 Leon Spinks TKO 3 (15), 2:34 Jun 12, 1981 Joe Louis Arena, Detroit, Michigan, U.S. Retained WBC and The Ring heavyweight titles
37 Win 37–0 Trevor Berbick UD 15 Apr 11, 1981 Caesars Palace, Paradise, Nevada, U.S. Retained WBC and The Ring heavyweight titles
36 Win 36–0 Muhammad Ali RTD 10 (15), 3:00 Oct 2, 1980 Caesars Palace, Paradise, Nevada, U.S. Retained WBC and The Ring heavyweight titles
35 Win 35–0 Scott LeDoux TKO 7 (15), 2:05 Jul 7, 1980 Metropolitan Sports Center, Bloomington, Minnesota, U.S. Retained WBC and The Ring heavyweight title
34 Win 34–0 Leroy Jones TKO 8 (15), 2:56 Mar 31, 1980 Caesars Palace, Paradise, Nevada, U.S. Retained WBC heavyweight title
33 Win 33–0 Lorenzo Zanon KO 6 (15), 2:39 Feb 3, 1980 Caesars Palace, Paradise, Nevada, U.S. Retained WBC heavyweight title
32 Win 32–0 Earnie Shavers TKO 11 (15), 2:00 Sep 28, 1979 Caesars Palace, Paradise, Nevada, U.S. Retained WBC heavyweight title
31 Win 31–0 Mike Weaver TKO 12 (15), 0:44 Jun 22, 1979 Madison Square Garden, New York City, New York, U.S. Retained WBC heavyweight title
30 Win 30–0 Ossie Ocasio TKO 7 (15), 2:38 Mar 23, 1979 Hilton, Winchester, Nevada, U.S. Retained WBC heavyweight title
29 Win 29–0 Alfredo Evangelista KO 7 (15), 2:14 Nov 10, 1978 Caesars Palace, Paradise, Nevada, U.S. Retained WBC heavyweight title
28 Win 28–0 Ken Norton SD 15 Jun 9, 1978 Caesars Palace, Paradise, Nevada, U.S. Won WBC heavyweight title

In the above run, I really doubt if George Foreman would realistically go through all of them undefeated in that amount of time, but I am having a lot of trouble deciding who he would lose to. Could George have actually gone 23-0 against that list? Maybe. Maybe not. Individually, in HIS prime and at that exact point in THEIR careers, I would think George Foreman would win each fight. But a 23-0 run? I just am not sure about that.

 

No one is saying Foreman is a lock though. Could he slip up? Absolutely. But if Holmes had lost somewhere between Frazier 1973 & Ali 1974 (& I think either of those men or prime Norton are 50-50 shots at beating peak Holmes), we’d be saying Holmes could never go on a long run. But people acting like Foreman couldn’t or is extremely unlikely to beat Holmes’ title competition is laughable when they also want to say Holmes would beat lots of ATG’s when he never beat one.

There is no consistency to the logic. Foreman didn’t go on a long run so he couldn’t…yet Holmes beat no one great (in a 30 year career!) but he would beat half the best HW’s who ever lived. Uh huh. Seems balanced.

 

2X, he did what George couldn't do once...

He was later flagrantly robbed of what should have been the first win over Michael Dokes, a Don King rigged draw.

Jaws was the third guy after Jinx and Holyfield I to beat Qawi, the first CW Champion of any consequence, and Lennox, Carl Williams, Biggs, Seldon and Mercer failed to stop him, after he moved back up from the CW division for good. (In all fairness, Ocasio was actually a test for Lennox, and Jaws became the first to hear the final bell on Lennox's first 19 pro bouts.) He won the front end of exchanged decisions to Coetzer, both in South Africa, making his ten round UD win over Coezter in Cape Town a bit more impressive.

 

That’s it, no one is calling the guys Larry beat a murders row but they were all real pro fighters in the bouts of there lives - Homer dealt with them one after the other… it requires adaptability, there will be people always watching you fight, picking up things making plans George just wasn’t an adaptable guy… by champion standards he was pretty mentally weak in his first iteration, I don’t know how much adversity Foreman would be able face over several bouts before he started to wilt under pressure - he’d wind up slipping on a banana peel when his only plan didn’t work.

 

We did see that happen to Leon with a completely unknown Coetzee in Gerrie's international coming out party. (This made John Tate ridiculously lucky, because if Coetzee had let Leon expend himself early before winning in later rounds, the Gerrie would've been Ali's successor to the WBA title. As it was, Coetzee did buckle John first.)

Bernardo Mercado KILLS Ken Norton! Based on that, I wouldn't bet the rent on Foreman wiping out the best prepared which Leon could bring. At the moment Holmes wiped Leon out, Larry was a top three ATG HW IMHO.

My next post is going to be dedicated to a single defense of the Assassin's...

 

Andy Kaufman would be proud to come up with this kind of thread.

 

You think Leon Spinks beats George Foreman? - I wouldn’t go that far personally. Why exactly do you think that?

 

Foreman's just a poor mans Bernardo Mercado. Do you really think he could emulate what Gerrie Coetzee did? Or Carlos De Leon? Even Eddie "The Animarl!" Lopez could only manage a draw with this version of Neon Leon. Study up!

 

He's nearly always behind Holmes in such lists.

 

Blatantly false.

 

There are countless examples of Fighters never being quite the same again after their first defeat. Why shouldn't Foreman be considered as being among them, in your view?

I think [at least some] people will have factored this in.

I'm not sure if you meant to convey this, but you are effectively stating that Foreman going 20-0 is practically impossible.

The odds might be against it but it is, nonetheless, realistic to speculate that he would be able to do so.

 

Where he should be! “Peanut Head” is a top shelf heavyweight champ - Foreman was more like a very good contender at the right moment for his first career. If Frazier lost to Ali the first time (Could, Would, Didn’t) using his obnoxious clinching, GF’s still in the same position but never the champ, he’d still be a guy who beat Frazier who was finished, drinking and singing (Post FOTC look at the weights for his defences it tells you what he thought of Foreman) and Norton who was the guy who cut it close with a shot Ali, a fat Ali *beat* ATG Joltin Jimmy and lost when it mattered. Still in his prime years GF faces some ranked guys who can fight back a bit for once and he runs to Jesus or almost has his head taken off… he was never going to be a long standing champ, heck if he hung around for the late 70s he’d be another name people would’ve ridicule Larry for beating up.

 

I meant Foreman going 20-0 in world title fights against numerous ranked opponents over 7 years is not realistic.

As I keep saying your talking about Foreman quadrupling the amount of title defenses he actually achieved in his career which was 5 and beating double the amount of ranked opponents that he actually achieved in his career.

As for Foreman not being the same fighter after Ali I think that is blown out of proportion somewhat. Like I said I can excuse the Lyle fight to an extent because he was rusty coming into that fight, but against Young he'd had plenty of fights prior to that and I think that was more of a style issue than anything.

 

How so ? I think most fans have a list that looks similar to this.

Ali
Louis
Lewis
Marciano
Holmes

When I see alot of Heavywwight lists I normally see those 5 names in the top 5.