James J Jeffries?

Ruhlin was at the least, much better than Jeffries’ brother Jack.

The sparring on film is absolute fluff. Given a real fight, different story.

Jeffries fought Ruhlin exactly as Jeffries was most often described as fighting in the reports for other fights.

If Jeffries seriously entertained to fight as he did on the training film, I think we would’ve seen it manifest in the fight - why not strut and fine tune your stuff in a real fight Jeff?

 

The Ruhlin we have film of is not better than the film we have of brother Jeff though. Obviously he’s a better fighter, but there’s nothing he’s doing in the footage that actually forces Jim to duck, roll and slip punches like he does in the training footage. The volume being put up isn’t the same as what Jack Jeffries is doing in their own footage, if we wanted to know how Jeffries would react to someone putting up some sort of volume then the Ruhlin fight footage can’t be exactly be used as an example. He’s just sprinting around the ring and getting countered to death. Jeffries is patient, accurate and quick to counter just as descriptions say so you’re right about that. It also shows how poor his footwork is on the pursuit compared to when his opponent is coming forward, another thing that descriptors noted.

The training footage does demonstrate one thing; Jeffries is very quick with his ducking and slipping, and his bro isn’t exactly slow getting his punches off. It’s not easy ducking punches from a smaller man like Jeff does even if the opponent isn’t elite. it shows Jeffries had at least some knowledge of defense, even if he wasn’t avoiding punches with his hands down like prime Roy jones. His style (the crouch) was still very reflex-dependent.

 

I’ll just have to agree to disagree Mel.

Quite simply I see the sparring footage as fluff. Not a real fight with seriously intended punches thrown. Shoe shining. In a real fight, Jeffries was much more clammed up and not so confident, patiently advancing forward and copping any shots thrown his way in order to get his own punches home.

 

I feel like defense may have been more integral to Jeff’s preferred, reactive style than you think. Jeffries was largely a counter-puncher after all, and most effective counter punchers need good defense to thrive.

Jeffries does duck and slip a bit in the extended Sharkey footage, like at 3:27 of this clip

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. He also has a good habit of sticking his left in front of his face to block punches, or on his opponent’s lead, before throwing a right. In the Ruhlin footage he rolls with Ruhlin’s right which he also does to avoid a right hand in the training footage as well, he’s also eager to catch and control Ruhlin’s lead hand with his right; a habit old Jeff also shows in his spar as an old man with Sharkey. Patiently darting that right hand out to control lead so he’s free to work with his left, a few similarities to Louis here with regard to how the crouch worked. When the styles favoured him Jeffries was likely a very competent defensive fighter.

 

I’ve seen all Jeffries footage and read the reports.

Given same, I’m not seeing or perceiving the refined defensive measures you’re affording to Jeffries.

Some 3 years after this footage, much smaller, lighter, older and inactive Bob Fitz still managed to land easily and punch the **** out of Jeff over 8 rounds.

This is Sharkey he’s fighting also, a sawn off 185 lbr who brawled. Not too clever himself.

How did Jeffries not manage to stop Tom over 45 rds total? Fitz himself of course levelled Tom twice, needing just a total of 10 rds to do so.

Jeffries might’ve ducked or dodged a couple of shots but one or two swallows don’t make a summer.

Chuvalo got his rep. for possessing an iron chin because even though he was hit hard and often, he soaked it all up.

Suffice to say, Chuvalo was no defensive whiz. If he was or even displayed average defence, then that would offset, to some extent, the perception of his having a granite chin.

So it goes with Jeffries, who was known as the Iron Man of the ring….known more for his durability and stamina than anything else…..

All just imo of course.

 

I think Bob landing so much had to do with his approach. In the first fight Jeffries made Bob miss plenty to the point where Fitz himself was amazed by Jeff’s defense. Such wasn’t the case in the rematch because Bob forced Jeffries on the attack, which he was notoriously poor at doing compared to his opponent coming to him even by Tommy Ryan’s opinion, who largely built Jeffries.

I also think Jeff’s poor performances against Sharkey had to do with his injuries rather than poor skill. Before his arm got reinjured Jeffries sent Sharkey to the canvas twice in round 2. Odds are he would’ve stopped it sooner, which Jeffries appeared to think as well as I remember reading a quote of him telling Sharkey something along the lines of, “if I was 100%, I would’ve knocked your ass out”

Sure, Sharkey is crude and probably not that hard to duck from, but it does show Jeffries incorporated defense to aome extent in his actual fights. Making sure to keep his left high when he threw his right, incorporating ducking, slipping etc. These aren’t just things he chose to show off in a random sparring video with his brother, they are things that Jeffries actually did in his fights to at least some extent. Significant enough to make Fitz marvel at his defense in a post-fight, as well as significant enough to eliminate Ruhlin’s landing ratio after his successful second round.

Many fighters have reputations that aren’t fully deserved. Sure, Jeffries was an iron man by all accounts that was willing to soak up punishment and brawl if it meant the route to victory was easier. Many other greats like Dempsey would look like technical geniuses in some fights while brawling like drunk sailors in another (Willard, Firpo). However, there was more to Jeffries than that. Like many other greats, Jeffries can be solid technicians despite having crude performances.

 

Ruhlin was credited with the first two rounds, in the third a left to the body took all the ambition out of Ruhlin.He later said he never fully recovered from it. I cannot see how you can be a "solid technician " and give ,"crude performances," that's a direct contradiction to me.
Silk purse, sows ear.
I'm not saying Jeffries was a latter day Chuvalo,he was quicker and hit harder , but you don't get a rep for an iron chin,in24 fights. if you are defensively clever.
Here is Johnson training,sidestepping and feinting.
Jack Johnson training (and a rare bull terrier appearance) (youtube.com)
There is no footage of Jack actually fighting like this,nor have I seen any descriptions of him doing it in a fight,he stood flat footed and waited for his opponents to come in,inviting them to punch , so he could counter them.By and large that was also Jeffries stratagem.
There are also no descriptions of Johnson giving a crude performance.

 

Because, like I said with my examples of Dempsey-Firpo compared to more technical Dempsey performances; some great fighters were just willing to have confidence in their durability, power in a fight so disregard defense and technique in some of their fights. However, like Jeffries, this doesnt define their technical abilities when they actually apply effort doing so as well as in stylistically favourable matchups. You can be a solid technician with poor technical performances, especially ones that make more sense with context.

Ruhlin himself said he couldn’t find Jeffries at all after his successful round 2, likely due to adjustments by Jeffries which led to Ruhlin freezing. I remember round 1 being a toss up from what I’ve read.

 

When Jeffries fought a clever boxer he was outclassed,and had to rely on his durability and strength to prevail.

 

When he fought great technical boxers that didn’t utilize excessive lateral movement like Fitz in the first fight and Corbett in the rematch. Not the best versions of either, but still seemed formidable to some extent by that stage with regard to speed and technique.

 

Dempsey did not take a quarter of the punishment Jeffries absorbed in his career and he was always a pro-active, come at you swarmer.
Hype Igoe was ringside for the second Fitz v Jeffries fight,he said Jeffries endured worse punishment than Willard did against Dempsey.

 

My point was that you can have poor technical, aka crude performances while still being an efficient technician when that fighter actually tried being technical or being in a stylistically favourable matchup. His performance against Firpo certainly was, and many other ATGs have had poor technical performances as well.

 

I would not describe Fitz as a great technical boxer,he severely underestimated Jeffries in their 1st fight and had not fought for 2 years.
Corbett was washed up for their 2nd fight,and 3 years retired, reports of the great improvement in defence Jeffries had made must be taken in that context.

 

Jeffries tried to box with Corbett in their first fight and was badly exposed.Brady jumped up on the ring apron late in the fight and told him to go out for the ko because he was losing his title,he also told Ryan to **** off because his strategy wasn't working.
Dempsey was up against a man 216 1/2lbs 6'2 1/2",thats a bit different to one under 6 ft around 170lbs and 12 years older.

 

Jeff soaked up plenty of punishment in a number of fights. His rep. for same was well deserved.

Dempsey was technically proficient vs Willard, looking more like a modern boxer than most fighters prior to him.

Against Firpo, Dempsey was fighting in a fog after being hurt early - duly accounting for that Dempsey still didn’t look bad at all.

However formidable Corbett was (for Jeffries 1) or Fitz (for Jeffries 2), the measurement of their quality could only be made relative to Jeffries himself - to repeat, both had been inactive for several years -

Therefore the logic is circular -

That logic being: IF the old and inactive Corbett and Fitz could give Jeffries so much trouble then they must’ve still been good.

But as at the time they fought Jeff and for several years prior, we don’t have any corroborating examples of Corbett and Fitz being so competitive with any of the other top HWs.

We also don’t have any corroborating examples thereafter.

They “earned” their shots/rematches out of thin air due to their being name fighters.

If either warranted a rematch those matches should’ve happened within a reasonable time after their first matches vs Jeffries - not some 3 years after the fact, especially given their preceding 2-3 years of inactivity.