Jack Johnson vs Joe Frazier

Easy picking for the greatest heavyweight who ever lived?

Again, you are showing me Johnson negative fighting against a bunch of scrubs, guys who wouldn't qualify for a heavyweight match in the modern era. Despite what a bunch of self-proclaimed low intellect "experts" like yourself think, negative fighting doesn't work all the time against all opponents. Ali adopted many of these facets to his game in the 70's to set his preferred range and still struggled with a depleted Frazier.

Fail.

 

Your insulting Jack Johnson with this. He wasn't that dumb to fight inside with Frazier. He may indeed try to tie him up but if he lives in there with Joe then he'll last about as long as Ellis did.

 

No. Watch Johnson fight. He loved getting in close as his very technical inside game was superior. He would fight Frazier when he wanted to at length but this bout would be fought in close with Frazier trying to penetrate Johnsons defense but being unable to do so. Johnson smothers, controls and counters all night. A VERY frustrating night for Frazier. Johnson only needing to control one punch makes this far easier than if he were fighting a coordinated two handed puncher.

 

I know the overall point you're trying to make, and it's a salient one for this fight. My issue is, Ali, that night, was NOT the fastest and slickest HW ever. He simply wasn't. It was still a monumental victory, but let's not exaggerate Ali's condition and performance that night and equate it to a performance where he actually was the man you described.

 

He was still plenty slick, still ridiculously fast for a heavy, and was adopting newer techniques of game control that allowed him what was arguably his greatest victory still a few years in the future. I don't think I am overselling Ali by stating that in the early 70's, that version, was one of the very greatest heavies who ever lived. But every fighter, even the greatest, has a foil who will reveal vulnerability.

 

I would say Ali on that night moved better than any Johnson filmed fight, and also took a much better punch than Johnson did.

Once Frazier closes in, and his footwork was faster than Johnson's it would be lights out.

 

Johnson had great footwork. He just did not “dance” as did Ali which Johnson would have thought as wasted energy. Not “dancing” does not mean a fighters footwork was inferior. Johnson however did not need to dance. He developed an unequaled ability to control opponents in close. He would have “controlled” Dempsey, Marciano as well as Frazier. Frazier being the easier of the three due to his over reliance on one punch. The following video explains Johnsons inside game nicely:

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Agree.
Ali was sharp, fast and in good condition. Not many Heavyweights could have taken the punishment that Ali doled out, especially in the early rounds. Not even Joe Louis would have been standing after 6 or 7 rounds. Joe Frazier was able to walk through that punishment as well as set the pace and give back even more leather.

 

Johnson wouldn't have the luxury or fighting Frazier "when he wants to" he would be fighting Frazier off him. 3 minutes a round, every round. Joe would be the boss. He didn't stay on the outside for anyone. Jack Johnson though one of the greats wasn't strong enough to dictate where Frazier goes.

 

This guy knows what he's talking about, but pay attention he's right Johnson doesn't throw his right hand often and the guys he's fighting are super middle weights in the clips or an old man. Johnson doesn't throw many punches, it's not what he does and that makes it tough to win vs anyone active. Frazier is too dynamic to fall into a clinch, and the speed of his punches are excellent. Johnson had a low guard, and that's a very inviting target.

 

No chance. Johnson was an incredibly strong hwt. Secondly Johnsons style was to smother and control opponents inside. Joe would not be in any position to get off as Johnson would control inside position. The only pathway open to Frazier would be down the middle but Johnson would buffer these blows via pushing against Joe’s Elbows/arms. Johnson had an wonderfully developed inside game refined to a very high level. This video explains it well although it does not emphasize enough Johnsons ability to block hooks to the head while in very close quarters. Uncanny skill set functioning at a high level.

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I feel like the outcome here is largely rule-dependent. Yes, Johnson has never dealt with a pressure nightmare like Frazier, but Joe has never had to deal with a strong clinchgod that strived to control his wrists and biceps (no Diddy) when on the inside. I think Johnson would be helpless under modern rules though, at range Jack largely only has his jab to keep Joe at bay.

 

I’ve mentioned before I tend to stay away from these match ups. Dempsey & Tunney I regard right on the edge of being able to fight more modern opponents under contemporary rules. If you take a guy like Johnson in Frazier’s time, or Frazier in Johnson’s, things can get very unfair for the uninitiated fighter.