James J Jeffries?

Yeah but what about....what about... jeez I can't come up with a "what about".

You mentioned his left hand being low... he depended on his face holding up for defence, and Johnson took full advantage of the opening.

 

Jeffries actually said several times that he didn't mind getting hit.

 

Negotiations formally started on 01/03/1903.

This was less than a month after Johnson secured the colored heavyweight title.

Realistically Johnson was not going to get this fight, even if Jeffries had been willing to fight a black challenger.

While the majority of people picked Jeffries to win, Corbett was not without his backers.

Sam McVea, Yank Kenny, Abe Attle, and Hank Griffin all picked Corbett.

Jack Kitchen said that Corbett was "a better man today than when he fought Sullivan."

 

I am not blaming Fitzsimmons for the breakdown of the negotiations, I am just saying that whoever's fault it was, the negotiations broke down.

That is why talks were opened with Ruhlin, and I think that Jeffries did need to fit Ruhlin in somewhere.

 

I wouldn't have any objection to Jeffries defending his title against Munro, if it had not been at the expense of Johnson.

 

In an old post you DID blame Fitz for the breakdown in communications.Jeffries fitted Ruhlin in after Fitz had beaten him so bad he collapsed and had to have a Doctor stay with him all night in MSG because he was too badly off to be moved,moving in and out of consciousness all night he later spent 2 weeks recuperating at his managers home.
So badly beaten was Ruhlin that there was initially talk of holding Fitz in custody in case Gus died.

 

Kenny was one of Corbett's sparring partners,he would hardly pick against his employer .
Delaney,McCoy,Ruhlin,Root,Hart all picked Jeffries.
WTF was Jack Kitchen?

Choynski,Corbett,Langford,Jeannette,Armstrong all picked Jeffries to ko Johnson!

 

Who else would you have suggested then if not Ruhlin?

 

Well obviously the man who had destroyed Ruhlin,Bob Fitsimmons!

 

I've put together the following quotes (that I have already replied to as and when) in order to provide better cohesion and presentation of the discussion thus far.

 

Game Set And Match!

 

Apparently Munroe got his shot over Jeffries because of a lucky knockdown he got in an exhibition the previous year. The Nova Scotian HOF claims it was a 9 count. Munroe also had wins over an older Sharkey and Maher. Not that these are great wins but this was better than Johnons record against Jeffries opponents. Johnson would beat Munroe in 1905.

Johnsons record at this time was not Denver Ed Martins who Jeffries was willing to fight after the Fitz rematch. Martins only loss was in his debut which he'd avenged multiple times and he had no draws besides to that same fighter who'd given the champ trouble. Johnson barely won half his fights at this point he was 11-3-6. The Martin fight was close enough where a majority likely considered Martin the better fighter and expected him to avenge his loss just like with Armstrong. Martin was the same age as Johnson or even a few years younger(wiki has 2 birthdays). Him going away so fast and Johnson becoming the dominant "colored" champ wasn't exactly foreseeable. Also like today size plays a role in how interesting a matchup is to fans. Johnson was an ordinary sized HW while Martin was taller than Jeffries with an 80 inch reach. Armstrong who Martin was better than had given Jeffries issues and maybe even should have beat him who knows. Besides the "colored belt" in 1903 Johnson had seemingly none of the things that would interest people about Martin fighting Jeffries.

If we compare the "colored" belt to modern regional belts like the EBU belt or the Commonwealth belt does every regional champ get a title shot? Especially upon first winning the belt? No. Matter of fact the ones that do are constant features on the "most undeserved title shots lists" like Dunn and Tangstad.


Johnson did deserve the shot over Corbett on the merits. Every noteworthy HW/LHW did though. Corbett was an ex champ who did good in the fight years earlier and still had a 3 next to his age.

Jeffries v Corbett was 6 months after Martin lost to Armstrong and 7 after he lost to Johnson. Most likely this happened after. Corbett feels like a fight made to go through the motions.

Johnsons record before that streak was 5-3-4 and he added 2 more draws to Griffin who Jeffries beats.

Johnson case gets progressively better as time passes and after the Martin KO he gets the Hart eliminator which he loses debatable or not So far as the Martin KO was Martins 3rd KO loss in 4 fights. As mentioned above Martin kind of falls off the wagon here and Johnson even at his best struggled to put down bigger fighters especially that fast. At this time he isn't really knocking smaller guys out either. Jeffries in 1910 went 15 with him. I think the Martin KO was an outlier as it was the only fast KO of a large HW in Johnsons career. In 1907 he'd KO Peter Felix when Felix was in his 40s.

 

I repeat Munroe did NOT knock Jeffries down.
Jeffries was NEVER willing to face ANY black man in defence of his title,and he many times reiterated that.

I repeat Munro did NOT kd Jeffries.
Jeffries was NEVER prepared to defend his title against a black man,and he many times said so.
At the end of 1903 Johnson had beaten;
Butler
Ferguson x3
McVeyx2
Klondike
Gardner
Russell
Scanlan
Childs
That resume compares very favourably with any active heavyweight of that era.
Johnson was never a ko artist,neither by power or design,outclassing his opponents without getting hurt himself was his MO.