James J Jeffries?

You said he slipped. I find embellishment more likely then them making up a knockdown.

Some point after he became the undisputed champ he made that line. A period of 6 years. After picking up Tom Sharkeys title claim he fought Armstrong who was a training partner. It was originally supposed to be a 2 fight in one night but fight 1 cancelled and it was scheduled for 10 rounds. He also fought Griffin again in a non title bout in 1901. Jeffries might not have considered himself champ that doesn't mean he wasn't.

Jeffries changed his mind for whatever reason whether honestly changing his mind or for political reasons like Tex Rickard did. This is a guy in his early 20s fighting in a sport thats younger than he is and who denied refing Hart v Root. When his career started Peter Jackson was considered champ by much of the boxing world and there was no champ everyone agreed on who had the power to even draw a color line.

Sometimes people don't say as they do or flip flop and for all his swearing he'd never defend against a black man he fought Jack Johnson. Yeah it was technically not a title defense but there was no official belt Jeffries coming out of retirement had the original lineage. Jeffries was allowing Johnson the chance to win that lineage he otherwise wouldn't and all the credibility that came with it.

Boxing rec says they announced Jeffries was going to fight Martin after Fitzsimmons II and you'd presume this didn't happen because of Martins losses to Johnson and Armstrong.

 

Yes I know the history and key points relevant to the discussion which I’ve already incorporated into my position in detail.

And that position holds that Johnson should’ve been granted a shot during 03/04. Hell, Jeffries could’ve even signed up for fight with Johnson after Jack beat Martin again, via KO.

As Mac stated, Munroe did not KD Jeffries. That was a myth perpetrated to entice a title shot. Jeffries was pissed about Munroe’s talk and made the fight to punish Munroe.

If that’s all it took get a shot in Jeffries’ arbitrary world, too bad Jeff was sufficiently pissed by Johnson flattened his brother in 1902 and Johnson’s subsequent challenge to Jeff after fight - yes, the same brother that some allege Jeffries looked so good against in the sparring film.

Jeffries went 15 with Johnson? Why ignore the obvious fact that Johnson carried Jeffries - as he was known to have done with quite a few other opponents? Johnson could’ve had Jeffries gone in 4 rounds, easily.

 

Splitting hairs between a lie and embellishment as part of the ongoing defence for Jeffries?

Munroe lied about KD’ing Jeffries - and Jeffries called him out for lying. Period.

Due respect, but the ongoing attempts to justify and rationalise several of Jeffries’ unjustified selections of opponent are gob smacking to say the least.

Jeffries didn’t want to come back and fight Johnson. He was heavily pressured and coerced into it. He basically had a breakdown just prior to the fight.

Risking your title as opposed to trying to get it back are two different things anyway.

 

No, not me.

If you read it all, you deserve a medal Ferg! Lol.

Just trying to cover off on all things and repeat some stuff that wasn’t taken on board in the first instance.

However, I promise you, I won’t be writing War And Peace again.

 

Johnson lost his title eliminator in 05 and regardless IMO most of his feats came after that loss. Before he was on a streak but his wins include Martin, baby McVea, Childs and Sandy Ferguson after theres Langford, Jeanette, Lang, Jim Flynn, Munroe, old Fitz, old Felix. The second list included more KOs and dominant wins too.


Okay its a story explaining why he got the shot even if it was fraud. But yeah shame on that HOF then for lying. I'm not saying I don't believe you guys, but you get why I'm at least a little skeptical a event was entirely made up? Munroe still had the wins over Sharkey and Maher though and was not a bad fighter at all. Part of why hes so unaccomplished is he retired so quick.

His brother getting knocked out is as logical a turning point as any. Would especially explain why he would target Johnson in particular.

Maybe Johnson could take him out in 4 thats peak Johnson v Jeffries whose been out 6 years but Johnson not knocking out his biggest opponents despite outboxing them for many rounds isn't based on just that. Theres no other similar examples except Felix who unlike Martin was really old. Its what cost Johnson his title against Willard in the end. Willards a bit bigger than Jeffries or Martin obviously but I'm saying the Martin KO was an aberration. Thats the only time he knocked out a giant HW or any elite fighter in their prime(on paper) in a few rounds. Sandy Ferguson went the distance most times etc.

 

Jeffries, during his tile reign never once considered giving a black man a chance at his title and there are literally dozens of his quotes to that effect.
You can try and spin things any way you want ,but that is the bottom line,and it is so well established as to be true that even Jeffries admirers such as Janitor do not dispute it.I'm certainly not going to waste any of my time debating what is a matter of public record.

 

Per boxing rec after Martin v Armstrong which was the same day as the Jeffries v Fitzsimmons rematch.

""Martin proved the cleverer and never gave his opponent a chance, being declared an easy winner on points at the close of the fifteenth round; Martin, it is announced, will challenge the winner of the Jeffries-Fitzsimmons fight in San Francsico." (Associated Press)
Sporting Life - Monday 28 July 1902"

I'm not disputing any of the dozens of quotes I'm disputing the timeline and the Armstrong fight not being considered a title defense because people have chosen to ignore the Sharkey lineage.

 

Fitzsimmons sitting ribgside and rooting for Jeff,stated after the fight that Johnson could have ended it whenever he chose,
Corbett and Jack Jeffries were in Jeff's corner,during the 7th round Corbett sa;d,"your brother's licked what shall we do?" They contemplated having Jeff foul his way to defeat to avoid the ignominy of a ko.
I'm losing patience now with all the corkscrew gymnastics and machinations being employed to bolster up Jeffries.
Next we will be told what a jovial fellow he was ,always ready with a joke,and that he actually liked blacks and his refusal to shake Johnson's hand at the contract signing and in the ring was just an act ,as that his use of the words ******,****, jigaboo ,and skunk to describe Johnson were just old Jeff building up the gate.
I'm pretty sick of this thorough going racist who ducked the best black fighters,whilst Champion getting his arse licked on this thread.
"Jeffries made his name on the backs of smaller ,older men".Gene Tunney.

 

Johnson challenged Jeffries dozens of times,he turned up at his fights and publicly called him out. A promoter issued challenges on behalf of both Martin and McVey with a cash guarantee attached ,we know all this ,it isn't news.
What would be news is if you could find ONE SINGLE LINE of primary sourced proof in which Jeffries ACCEPTED one of those countless challenges!

 

Yes that would have been very nice, but once the negotiations fell through, it had to be somebody else.

 

Since I cannot quote your points in blue, I will take the liberty of numbering them.
1. No response needed.

2. The reason that I impose these rules, is because if you don't in a thread like this, you get presented with scenarios like "John L Sullivan defends against Frank Slavin on a weekend when he was demonstrably in a coma."

You could always respond that you think that Jeffries could have attempted a more ambitious schedule, but failing that the following title challengers woudl have been better options.

3. Title fights back then were arranged much as today. Overtures were sent out to various parties, then there was a protracted period of wrangling, which sometimes resulted in a title fight and sometimes didn't. If it did then fighters underwent a training camp, and it could be six months between the first negotiations, and a fight taking place.

4. How would you even begin to establish whether a long count from that era, was an attempt to give one fighter an advantage, or just a slow and deliberate count? He might have done the same for Jeffries if he had been dropped.

5. See above.

6. At this point it might be worth mentioning that Corbett was threatening to claim the Heavyweight Title if Johnson didn't meet him. You are assuming that once Johnson beat Martin, he became the standout challenger, and that Jeffries would have beaten a path to his door if not for racial prejudice. The truth is that Johnson was not that highly regarded after he beat Martin, even by the sections of the press who were bigging up Martin and McVea. The press were slow to cotton on to how good Johnson was. I would also point out that the Colored Title was very lightly regarded, until Johnson himself made it a big deal. The calls for Jeffries to fight Johnson become much louder after the series with McVea, and the Martin rematch.

7. Munro was in hindsight a manufactured contender, but he was on a winning streak, there were sections of the press calling for Jeffries to fight him. There is no crystal ball in boxing. Nobody knew that Johnson was going to be the next great champion, and that Munro was not going on to anything after he fought for the title. Finally I would say that a win over a name fighter counted for a lot more back then, even if they were obviously past their best. Jackson, Fitzsimmons and Corbett had almost mythical status, and this lasted into the 1930s.

 

Munroe was very poor, the win over old, alcoholic Maher even looked suspicious at the time, the KD never happened and the Sharkey win too was strange.

 

I am not saying that Munro was any great shakes, but his backers manufactured a contender fair and square.

 

I agree with most of what you're saying but how did Corbett expect to get away with claiming the HW title when he'd won 1 fight in a decade?