James J Jeffries?

That is a very good question.

His key argument was that Jeffries was an inactive champion, so shoot him?

In practice Corbett was probably just trying to get the fight, and figured that his legend might be enough to cause Jeffries some embarrassment, given the close result in their previous fight?

Within very recent memory, a credible alternative champion claiming the title, had caused splits in the sport.

Note the Maher lineage as an example.

 

Because he beat John L. Sullivan.

Sure, beating a fat, shot alcoholic a decade before fighting Jeffries may be a terrible justification for a title shot, but it’s really all Corbett needed to get at least some publicity behind getting a title shot. He got the most publicized and iconic victory of that generation by a long shot, over the sport’s biggest star. As long as he didn’t have a clear decline or significant losing streak, he would never be out of the title picture.

 

It wasn't a title eliminator,because Jeffries had already stated ahead of the fight,[and he picked Johnson to win,]that in the event of Johnson winning ,he would refuse to fight him.So NO eliminator. McVey weighed 205 lbs,big baby!

 

You got the first part right,they manufactured him into a contender,but not "fair and square!"

 

There are certain ungentlemanly practices in this sport, that none the less fall within the rules.

One of them is engineering a contender an easy route to a title shot, by careful promotion and matchmaking.

That is what clearly happened here.

However it doesn't mean that Munro was not a contender.

He was.

 

Jeffries was retiring so what difference did it make?

 

This is what people are not getting their heads around.

Being a name fighter carried much more weight back then.

There was serious talk of a Jeffries Sharkey III, if Sharkey got past Munro.

At least give Munro credit for stopping that abomination.

When Jack Johnson finally beat Bob Fitzsimmons, he was a physical wreck, but Johnson got a lot of credit in the press for the win.

 

I’ve already illustrated that Johnson’s record as at Feb03 was sufficient to warrant a shot.

Based on the thinnest premise, which was a lie anyway, Munro got a shot - citing his record otherwise means little - if he didn’t box Jeff in
an exhibition and falsely claim a KD he doesn’t get the shot.

You already stated in a previous post that Munro got his shot based on the knock down claim - but then you moved further back in time re Munro’s record to try and rationalise Munro’s shot otherwise. Sliding defence.

Jeffries publicly claimed Munro to be a liar and he was sufficiently pissed to want to get in there and pulverise Munro - thus the Jack Jeffies analogy - with Jeff not so inclined to seek revenge against Johnson.

Watch the Ketchel fight. Stanley didn’t make it to round 12 because Johnson couldn’t finish him.

Sufficiently inclined and within a heart beat, Johnson flattened Stanley. Johnson often let opponents hang for longer than their worth.

Johnson was 37 old and out of shape against Willard - no small details being omitted there - why? Willard was also somewhat bigger than Jeffries with durability arguably to match.

Victor McLaglen boxer come actor was huge, bigger than Jeffries. He said that Johnson dropped him with a body shot early and could’ve stopped him at any time but allowed him to stay the full 6 rounds.

 

Quite a bit actually because Jeffries did not announce his retirement until some time after the Munroe fight,and it was prompted by his disappointng purse for the Munroe fight.
If one of the participants in a fight is black and the champion has already stated that,in the event of him winning he will refuse to defend against him,that by definition cannot be a real elimination fight,because ,said champion has already eliminated the black fighter before the fight !
You have trouble following things don't you.

 

Nope, Munroe was a hyped nobody,when he later fought Johnson the press stated he did not even know how to punch properly.

• • The Los Angeles Herald reported the following on August 27, 1904:
  Like the veriest amateur in the prize ring, Jack Munroe of Butte, Mont., went down and out before Champion James J. Jeffries tonight in the second round. The man from the mining district made such an extremely sorry showing that the great throng in Mechanics pavilion roundly hooted him as he protested to Referee Graney against the decision that had been given in favor of the champion. The two giants had not been in the ring two minutes when it was foreseen that the aspirations of Munroe would be quickly disposed of.
  The Los Angeles Herald reported the following on August 27, 1904:

Like the veriest amateur in the prize ring, Jack Munroe of Butte, Mont., went down and out before Champion James J. Jeffries tonight in the second round. The man from the mining district made such an extremely sorry showing that the great throng in Mechanics pavilion roundly hooted him as he protested to Referee Graney against the decision that had been given in favor of the champion. The two giants had not been in the ring two minutes when it was foreseen that the aspirations of Munroe would be quickly disposed of.

 

Nope, Munroe was a hyped nobody.

• The Los Angeles Herald reported the following on August 27, 1904:

Like the veriest amateur in the prize ring, Jack Munroe of Butte, Mont., went down and out before Champion James J. Jeffries tonight in the second round. The man from the mining district made such an extremely sorry showing that the great throng in Mechanics pavilion roundly hooted him as he protested to Referee Graney against the decision that had been given in favor of the champion. The two giants had not been in the ring two minutes when it was foreseen that the aspirations of Munroe would be quickly disposed of.
The miner was scared and awkward and Jeffries in the first round had him twice on the canvas taking the count.
Jeffries directed his bombardment against the stomach of his opponent and each shot was followed by a blow on the jaw that sent Munroe to his knees. Jeffries went back to his corner after the opening round with a sneer and a laugh on his swarthy face, while Munroe's seconds busied themselves with smelling salts and restoratives.
When the two came together for the second round the laugh on the champion's visage changed to a look of determination that boded ill for the miner. Forty-five seconds after the gong sounded Munroe was lying on the floor, a bloody, bruised mass of humanity, with Jeffries standing over him, ready if necessary to put the quietus on the championship ambitions of his adversary.
The miner was too dazed to rise to his feet and the time keepers counted him out, but the husky man from Southern California did not understand that the victory was already his, nor could Munroe realize that his pugilistic star had so early set, and the two men in a moment or two were facing one another and Jeffries landed a terrific blow on the jaw of his staggering opponent.
Fitz offered Munroe $1000 if he could last 3 rounds with him .
When Munroe fought Johnson the press remarked that he didn't even know how to punch properly.

 

1. ?????

2. I’ve already illustrated that your so called rules are artificial and customised exactly to support your unreasonable defence of Jeffries. I also provided a hypothetical highlighting just one of the obvious flaws in your rules.

3. No point whatsoever made here. I clearly understand the processes and machinations involved in setting up fights.

Your statements here don’t detract or refute my detailed position re Johnson being improperly passed over.

I highlighted that no contracts nor any meaningful negotiations existed when Johnson won the coloured HW Title in Feb03.

I also illustrated that setting up fights wasn’t as convoluted as you’re trying to suggest in your ongoing attempts to defend Jeffries.

Corbett was the primary architect for his own second tilt at the title - and it was whipped up in no time even despite Jeffries’ initial reluctance.


4. Sorry, but your unfounded position here is very telling. It proves your steadfast refusal to yield even to the most obvious facts/truths that impugn your position.

Corbett’s statement that the ref, a close friend, deliberately afforded him multiple long counts in order to keep Jim in the fight is irrefutable.

You previously tried to argue against “assumptions” - which the above is clearly NOT - but now, atop all else, your taking the extreme liberty to “assume” that Jeffries “might’ve” been afforded same???

Corbett was of those times. He knew and identified what he clearly understood to be a “long count” (yes, an “actual thing”) afforded to him due to referee bias - he didn’t note Graney to be close friend for nothing - that fact was included to punctuate his point.

So you’re also actually arguing with Corbett himself to falsely float Jim’s viability during the course of the rematch - a “viability” clearly extended by the ref’s improper conduct. For me, that is the clear take away here.

By and large, Corbett wasn’t given much chance for the rematch - the concept of media and public opinion you tried to uphold previously in an attempt to defend Jeffries choices -

And, as it so happened, the complexion and outcome of the fight aligned itself with the pre fight, majority opinion - even despite the ref’s own attempts to “carry” Corbett.

5. ??????

6. I know Corbett was framing to claim the title, and….? That didn’t make him any more eligible than he was. I’ve already said that Corbett was the primary mover for his own rematch - he wasn’t on the radar otherwise, certainly not on Jeffries’ radar.

Johnson’s right to a shot was far more prominent than what you’re trying paint. I could provide further details to support that - but, tbh, you’re simply moving from one soundly refuted point to another. It’s never ending….

7. Munro was afforded a shot primarily based on the circulated myth that he dropped Jeffries in their exhibition.

Trying to dignify Munro’s title shot for reasons otherwise is disingenuous.

But for Munro’s false claim - he doesn’t get a shot. And again, the fight itself proved just how unworthy Munro was.

Jeffries was extremely dismissive of Munro but granted him a shot anyway - the motive underscored by Jeff’s personal seeking of revenge for Munro’s lies.

And there is also the potential accomodation of Johnson after Jack defeated Martin the second time around…..after Jeff’s own none too taxing sham against Munro…..

……but better for Jeff to just sit on his title, see Johnson be robbed against Hart and THEN announce his retirement shortly thereafter…..some 8 months or so after his last fight…..

So that’s the trees, the forest and the relevant dots for easy joining. Amazing.

Forgive me if I’m not so detailed going forward.

 

Cheers Ferg. This is the way I figure it: -

I read the good, the bad and the downright ugly, all of it, now matter how long or short.

Why should I be the only one to suffer?

An epic, Homer-esque post from me,every now and then, makes me feel like I’ve evened the ledger. Lol.

 

Classic @mcvey! Tearing it up!