Another Fighter That Beats Foreman (Zaire)?

Learn how to read you ****ing clown.

I wasn't praising Foreman's chin. I was responding to this quote "Myself, I think once Foreman tasted Tua's power, he'd immediately crumble and get knocked out like he did against light-hitting Ali."

Not sure, how someone (even as dense as you) could've missed my explanation. Looks like I'll have to dumb it down even further.

Foreman wouldn't "crumble" once he tasted Tua's power on the sole basis that Ali hit harder than Tua, as he showed against much harder punchers than Ali.

 

Larry Holmes.

 

A lot of these supposed punchers Foreman is credited with facing have virtually nothing in the way of results to back up their reputation as huge punchers. Briggs and Morrison kayoed a lot of unranked opponents but could never translate that against quality opposition.
Ali is probably among the biggest punchers Foreman faced who combined power with actual world-class ability. There's a big difference between fighting a guy who has kayoed numerous top ten heavies and a guy who has never stopped anyone world class or especially durable.

Also why are you assuming Foreman is as hard to stop in the 1970s as he was in the 1990s? He was never down in the 1990s but dropped in 3 separate fights in the 1970s.

 

What the **** are you going on about now?

 

Pretty basic. A guy without knockouts over quality opponents can't be compared to someone who has demonstrated power against good opposition.

The Ali fight is probably a pretty good indicator of how durable Foreman was in the 1970s as the guys who potentially hit harder didn't land anywhere near the same number of punches.

Frazier and Norton could have potentially stopped Foreman but were knocked out before they could land enough punches to do so. If they hit Foreman with the sheer volume of punches Ali did the result is probably similar.

 

lol let's make a poll and see if even one person shares your opinion that Lyle, Briggs and Morrison (who I didn't even mention), Frazier, etc didn't hit as hard as Ali.

 

Do it

 

I would but their's no point in embarrassing him. He does a fine job of that himself.

 

Briggs wasn't able to translate his power into actual tangible results. His best knockout is probably Liakhovich who was kayoed numerous times including by Maurice Harris. He also didn't fight 70s Foreman who was smaller and seemingly less durable. Tua's Ruiz kayo alone is more impressive by far than anything Briggs did. Fraziers a terrible example because he was taken out in fight 1 before he could land much and shot in the rematch.

A guy who can't kayo Sedreck Fields or even Frans Botha is probably not a great gauge of durability.

 

You ****ing idiot. For the last time, nobody in this scenario is comparing Foreman's opponents power to Tua. They're being compared to Ali. How many ****ing times do I have to explain this?

This is the quote I was referring to ""Myself, I think once Foreman tasted Tua's power, he'd immediately crumble and get knocked out like he did against light-hitting Ali." This insinuates Foreman would "immediately crumble" once he got hit by someone who hit as hard or harder than Ali., which is clearly not true as was demonstrated in Foreman's career. This is NOT me praising Foreman's durability, nor comparing any of Foreman's opponents punching power in favor of Tua.

 

I just think its a bad argument because Ali would realistically kayo guys Briggs failed to take out. We'll agree to disagree

 

Jerry Quarry had the perfect slip and counter style off the ropes and out of the corners to knock George out, and I don't see Foreman successfully defending his title against JQ in 1973. George did not have the power to hurt him, not if Lyle or Shavers couldn't do it. The slip and counter masterpiece against Thad Spencer would've been Foreman's worst nightmare.

GF was extremely hesitant in most post fight interviews when asked about a match with Jerry. This is in total contrast to Liston's enthusiasm for getting in the ring with the Bellflower Bomber. Today, George says that Jerry was probably the one guy he deliberately avoided. Is this a charitable nod to a deceased competitor? The way he responds when asked about JQ in the early 1970's states no, definitely not! In his mind, he knew for an absolute fact that he could easily dispatch Norton and Ali. But he and Jerry both knew JQ had his number after they had previously sparred.

Joe Frazier could beat peak Jerry with attrition, Ali with evasion, peak Norton after five months of training where JQ had only 18 days notice, but NOBODY beat Jerry by overpowering him. And George is not stopping him inside of five to seven rounds. Foreman's style of attack would have made him the perfect victim for JQ's perfect career performance. George did not have the hand speed to match Jerry's trigger fists.

I think Bugner could've been extremely dangerous in 1973. He had no problems going the Championship Distance in the scorching heat and humidity of Kuala Lumpur, and by the time of Kinshasa he'd won over the Championship Distance three times.


I haven't been discussing historical candidates to this point, but two heavyweight contenders during Foreman's reign other than Ali and Young who could actually dethrone him.

I do speculate that whoever lands first between Foreman and Shavers might prevail, and Earnie definitely had the power to deck the wide open Foreman with a single shot. George's power was vastly diminished after five rounds. Shavers had lethal power for as long as a fight lasted, however exhausted he was. He also demonstrated with Henry Clark I that he could move laterally and around Foreman, although I think he'd go after his huge and wide open target.


Historically, if the cagy, experience and 20 round stamina Max Baer retreats in a corner then ducks and unloads that overhand right he destroyed the durable Pat Comiskey with, but using full Frankie Campbell killing force, George is going down as if shot. Watch Maxie skipping quickly backwards with Carnera. He was a crazily unpredictable rhythm killing dude with with a lethal right when it was healthy (which it was not for Louis). Galento's power made Louis dispatch him quickly. The Larruper merely laughed at that same power and ridiculed Two Ton. Peak Foreman is no peak Louis, who Maxie would've liked another shot at with two healthy hands following Galento.

Dempsey repeatedly lifted the 6'3" 216 pound Firpo upwards off his feet. He also lifted the 6'6" 245 pound Willard several inches up with a late third round short hook to the body. "These big slow guys are easy meat for me." George Foreman was definitely a big slow guy. Jack, with shots ripping upwards from the floor, would've had a field day with George.

There are too many guys who would easily decision Foreman to count, guys who Frazier would relentlessly hunt down and belabor with his hooks to the body. It's why Frazier is a top five heavyweight for me, and easily the greatest infighting heavyweight champion ever. (I'm not sure George would even qualify for my top 15. I think peak Loughran would've given him the same boxing lesson he gave the Larruper.)

We know exactly what the 24 year old Bugner would've done with the much less experienced 25 year old Foreman. He'd do exactly what Ali did, lay back on the ropes, brace his back against the ropes to shove George away with his three inches longer reach, like Muhammad did, Foreman would expend himself, then the Championship Rounds would be a nightmare for George, who would be utterly exhausted and completely spent by then. Bugner had much the faster hands, superior skills, far greater experience going much longer distances (Foreman had only gone ten rounds with Levi Forte and Peralta twice, while Bugner had gone ten rounds nine times, 12 rounds two times, and the Championship Distance five times prior to Kinshasa.)

Roberto Davila took Foreman the eight round limit on Halloween 1969. In Davila's very next outing, Bugner stopped him in four rounds. Prior to Kinshasa, Bugner had experience master classes with Cooper, Ali and Frazier.

Bugner was stopped in his 1967 debut by Paul Brown, which he avenged with two stoppage wins of his own in 1968. Between 1967 and 1987 (Frank Bruno in eight), only Shavers stopped a rusty and come backing Bugner on cuts.

To suggest that peak George Foreman is somehow going to magically stop Joe Bugner is delusional. Ron Lyle had the same punching power and physical strength as George, yet had to settle for a 12 round SD with Bugner in 1977. Bugner came off the deck to nearly drop Frazier moments later with a driving right in round ten, the latest round anybody ever nearly decked Frazier in up until Manila when Frazier was virtually blind in round 14. Bugner had the late round power and stamina to take Foreman out in the Championship Rounds.

 

Anybody else to beat Foreman? You left out Patterson, Johansson, & Hart

I guess you think a lot less of him than is the norm. Peak Quarry has a better chance than most realise, but he’d always be underdog for me. By 1973, he was no longer even that good. The rest would all be eaten alive most likely.

 

I’ve been thinking about this thread and you’re the right person to bounce this off of because you’ll give me a good reaction lol…. I pick Big James Toney to beat George Foreman in Zaire, have for a while but it’s becoming clearer.

 

Well to me Ney, guys like Foreman and Liston are extremely limited. I like Frazier's hustle, focus, drive and concentration on the body. In Ali-Norton III, Kenny won five big rounds by hooking to the body. If Ali-Frazier IV had taken place on that date, Joe would've won comfortably by staying with that hook to the body on an Inoki compromised body.

Mobile stylists who can circle right would've given Foreman and Liston fits. (This is where Holmes would've really dominated them. I've never seen an orthodox heavyweight move as quickly and fluidly counterclockwise as Larry did.)

I have always been extremely outspoken in my belief that Foreman would've absolutely destroyed Tyson by putting his mutts on Mike's broad and squared up shoulders, shoving him all over the place and into George's preferred punching range. I don't think Tyson had the power to hurt him.