Did George Foreman duck anyone ?

Oh come on, it's way past possibly hahaha

Ali was into his head for sure. He wasn't in his head "fear" or "doubt" wise however, he aggravated him. Foreman wanted to kill him.

I remember it well

 

Ha ha. I've always found it unusual behaviour, possibly leading to over-confidence. I wasn't replying to Swag to say i thought he was scared just to point out how strange I always thought it was and couldn't quite put my finger on it. But if a fighter is supremely confident, then gets into the ring with all the fans against him, most would feel a lot more nervous than previously.

But I don't see why he'd be more confident of beating Ali than, say, beating Norton. All's Kenny had done at the top level was go 1-1 with Ali and we'd seen him KO'd, while Ali had all that previous experience at the top level.

 

Many feared for Ali's life. He was considered past it. Foreman was a huuuuuuge favorite. There was very little going on for Ali. Foreman has stated himself he thought it was going to be easy. Everything was set for a mugging and a mugging we did see.

Norton was behind him when he faced Ali and added to George's confidence and the feeling he was indestructible. The flipside of Norton having done little beside going 1-1 with Ali is, well, Norton's never done **** yet even he went 1-1 with Ali.

 

The win is magnificent but the upset is overblown. 3-1 (or maybe officially 4-1 at fight time, as little as 11-5 in some places). As many, if not more, tipped Ali to beat Foreman than George to beat Joe. It's a big upset, but hardly on the scale of Douglas-Tyson. The Liston win was a much bigger upset.

I know. I've never been convinced he thought it'd be that easy. It sounded more like an excuse from a beaten fighter.

Decent point. Still, when a guy hasn't been stopped and he taken a fair amount of shots as Ali had done, there's no way it was going to be that easy. The old timers that used to write Ali off all the time, like Tunney, Sharkey's pre-fight opinion, didn't count as much as Joe's and Kenny's, who both gave Ali a chance, especially Kenny who said if he can dance and jab (ala like their rematch) he could get a decision.

A good few picked Ali to win especially in the UK (and been massively accurate with how the fight would go too- "George getting frustrated and gassing, with Ali stopping him late") and how many writers pick a big underdog to win anyway, in print, hardly any- for any big fight, they naturally side with the champion.

And a prime example that not many actually pick a challenger even if they're the bookies favourite, check out the Liston-Patterson 1 predictions, very much in favour of Floyd (especially with those old timers like Sharkey and Tunney). Boxing Illustrated did a poll and it's something like 2 out of 14 go for Liston, despite the evidence they'd seen with Sonny looking imperious and Floyd looking a vulnerable champion.

 

Busy with college right now, when I have time I'll check it out and get back to you.

Actually, Foreman reneged on an immediate rematch clause with Frazier that they'd previously agreed on. Not sure if the payout was quite as high as the one he got in Zaire, but I'm sure it was quite hefty, more than a million, and almost certainly worth more than 2 million, both amounts far more than anything Foreman made previously.

 

Don't have time to read and address the rest of your post but an excuse? It's clear as day from his demeanor, he thinks it's another day of work in the office.

He had TKO2 results over Frazier and Norton, both of whom had given Ali hell and beaten him each.

He had every reason to be convinced that it would "be that easy".

 

Yeah, like George didn't have a million excuses after that fight.

As if he'd think that, even just with the sheer fame and popularity of the guy in the other corner, he knows it's not the same. Anyway, if he did, how wrong he was. He should have read the Boxing News preview as a guide to what might go wrong. Taled about nailed on predictions- three of them (out of only 5 i may add) they just got the wrong round.

So, does that mean Tyson thought he'd smash through Holmes in no time just because of their respective Spinks results? Mike must have thought that, like Foreman, while he'll try to get it over with fairly quickly (like most huge punchers) if this guy is near his best, he knows enough tricks to make this a longer night than he wished.

 

Christ, 1973 was the Year of the Drake for Big George...first Joe, then Jerry. Larry used to be known as The Mallard around here, looks like George gave him a run for his money back in ole 73.

 

4-1 is where it settled. I'm sure i could find odds way higher than 4-1 in "some places" as well. In fact I've seen them as high as 7-1.

Nothing much ever is on the scale of Douglas - Tyson. Current history knows much better tho, Frazier was a one armed fighter, who had one glass eye and was 80% blind in the other who also happened to sing 3 songs more than he was supposed to just two nights before the fight.

How many were picking Ali on sentiment? The peoples champion.

Liston was comfortably a bigger upset but i'm not going to understate the Ali win. It was a BIG upset.

I guess we'll never know but one side of the ledger does have verbal support and we can see he certainly didn't fight like a scared man, to put it mildly. He came at Ali all night.

It's all very easy to compute in hindsight but that wasn't going on pre fight. Foreman thought himself invincible at this point and that's why he was such a wreck, mentally after the loss. He couldn't comprehend it let alone accept and get over it hence all sorts of stories close to the aftermath.

If we are taking stabs at what people say vs our own interpretation one could think that Norton was fantasizing, even lusting for an Ali victory given Foreman swatted him like an annoying fly while Norton was extremely competitive in the ring with this version of
Ali.

There's always some. A few picked Marvis Frazier to beat Holmes, a few picked Bey, ironically less than a few picked Micheal Spinks. Sometimes those few get lucky and there's a big upset and they look all sage, until next time. As i said earleir Ali was so popular with so much sentiment on his side. A heap picked him to beat Holmes too. Tyson was the favorite against Holyfield in the rematch. Some fighters are so big some are going to pick them automatically.

Given Liston was almost a 2-1 fave as well as his brilliant performances there must have been some real dumbo's around, 2 out of 14 is embarrassing. Liston was extremely unpopular however.

 

Some places as in the UK, not Burkina Faso or Chad. The odds were a lot closer here. Funny enough, even closer before the cut delay.

Depends what they 3 songs were I suppose. If they were Siberian Khatru by Yes, Suppers Ready by Genesis and Nantucket Sleighride by Mountain, then that's a looooonnnng night. The Foreman-Frazier one seems more obvious in hindsight- it just looks like the bigger guy smashing up the smaller guy- and looks like a recreation of George Kennedy beating up Paul Newman in Cool Hand Luke. But that wasn't the thinking beforehand with the boxing writers and the like (as you know).

A fair few, as i've mentioned, hence why the upset, while big, isn't quite as huge as made out.

He looks too wild, too early, for me. He should have evoked his 'mummy' a bit more.

I don't use hindsight in any of these discussions. I'm interested in opinions pre-fight and was initially surprised at how many writers got it right- and their explanation of what would happen. Of course, they're not the majority, as i've stated with the inclination to go with the champ. But I used to think this was a Ron Borges thing (whose preview for Holy-Tyson is great by the way) but 60% of Boxing News staff not only pick Ali but break it down so well.

Good point. But Ali picked Kenny to beat George and some always go for the smarter boxer (or who they perceive as being smarter).

Definitely a different scenario, the long term champion, approaching 50-0 will have one fight too many. I thought the same with WALDO and being on the verge of defeat soon enough (although I thought it'd be Joshua to end the reign, not Fury) but either way I felt that he would have one defence too many.

I know, hence why I mentioned he'd always be tipped by some- guys as famous as Ali and Tyson are never totally written off by many. But the likes of Eddie Mustapha Muhammad saying "Ali" isn't quite the same as a detailed breakdown of the action by a writer(s) like my RITJ examples that I've mentioned. Even even the 2 previews (out of 5) that tip George to win, don't think it will be an early stoppage due to Ali's knowhow, heart and experience (so totally different to the US- who get carried away with big punchers, far more easily). Obviously Boxing News didn't pick Ali to beat Holmes.

Yes, very strange. Still, it's just a case of them siding with the champ, for me, typically due to experience in those big fights. It's not so much the Sharkey's and Tunney's, who just say "Floyd in 8" (or whatever it was) but a detailed breakdown done by Ray Arcel and the like, and at the end, siding with Floyd (who also mentions how close they both came to fighting as early as 1954).

 

The UK always loved a good Ali. Smart peeps.

You're taking me back now. At the local, i used to play Child in Time on the juke at least once a night. It was a huge double win, as it's a great song and the version on the jukebox was 10 mins plus. After some weeks it got catchy for others and i didn't even have to play it as plenty of others were. After a while, unfortunately, the guy who managed the box must have caught on and suddenly it was dramatically shortened. I was devastated. A fine band as i have no doubt you'd agree.

Perhaps it depended on where one lived and his exposure.

Well that was the genius of Ali, who incited him into a frenzy. Only Ali would think, and have the balls, to do that with a monster like Foreman especially given Ali was aging out. Mad as a hatter.

Some hindsight will find it's way in no matter what. We've had the advantage of seeing Ali survive Foreman's best efforts as well as some others post Foreman and it's easier to say now Foreman should have known Ali would be hard to get out of there. He was also seen on the deck against Frazier in the 15th and was in danger of being stopped in an earlier round - he was in huge trouble. Frazier was no-where near the puncher Foreman was so Foreman's also got that available and the prolific press about that he was going to bury Ali.

Foreman is on record saying underestimating Ali was "the mistake of a lifetime". "“And I figured I’d knock him out in three rounds.”“All of us had one gigantic ego, all because I had mopped the floor with everyone,” Foreman said. “The stronger I’d get, the weaker they’d all get.”
Foreman would read an entire newspaper during breaks while preparing for Ali — “even the horoscopes,” he said — but he’d avoid any stories in which Ali was quoted.

“Never studied one film, never dissected anything,” Foreman said. “He was such a good-looking guy, I’m like, ‘I can beat him.’ Never decided what his strength or weakness was.

Foreman laments he “played right into Ali’s hands” by believing the challenger was actually afraid of him as the fight neared.

“Muhammad was a master. He’d act as frightened as could be. I’d put a hand near his face and he’d act scared,” Foreman said. “Look, all those amateur boxing matches he had, Sonny Liston ... no way he was afraid of me.”

So it's right there. Foreman wasn't remotely thinking of what Ali would and could and might do. He didn't think it mattered, simple as that.

Ali was pretty wild with his picks at times. Wasn't he cheering Kenny on from ringside? Frazier was screaming for Ali to get off the ropes from memory. So many great stories from this event.

Again tho Ali was something else, even at that point, and worse later. People were still picking his corpse to beat Holmes.

Did boxing news get their share wrong? I'm thinking very much so. I've seen one guy in my lifetime who got a a good number more right than wrong. The odd expert still thought Spinks would beat Tyson.

Yes there's been some amusing breakdowns over the years. It doesn't matter who's picking either. The avid unbiased fan goes as good as basically all the experts. I've seen guys that have fought both fighters of an upcoming fight reasonably recently, and get it woefully wrong. I watch in here where people are implying alleged trainers, we should listen to them, they actually (allegedly, and well, what level) train fighters and they know best. Get the **** outta here It's usually when the mentioned is expected to trend their way

I've seen Futch get it wrong on multiple occasions, all of them. It's mind boggling when there's well matched fantasy fights being so confidently and nonchalantly predicted. It simply goes against history regarding close fights.

There's something else i was going to mention but it';s not coming to mind, will add it alter. It came back seconds later LOL

I'm willing to bet boxing news in no way, shape, or form picked Ali to win this fight laying on the ropes most of the night letting George flail away. They would have picked him to outbox and outlast George, which wasn't what actually went down and via Ali's words would not have been doable.