Oleksandr Usyk vs. Joe Louis

Usyk does well until a Louis right hand hurts him and then the greatest finisher ever gets the job done. Louis KO 8.

 

If Usyk vs Louis somehow happened in an alternate universe where super fights could be created and watched, a lot of boxing nostalgics would be pretty upset, Usyk would barely lose a round, as he wouldn’t against most ATG heavyweights pre 60/70s

 

Don't think I've ever seen a single fight where Joe Louis didn't throw a body shot. Usyk would look good in moments but ultimately he gets cooked.
There's nothing that 60s/70s heavies had that 30s/40s guys didn't btw.

 

They were generally much bigger and just better co ordinated, Liston, Foreman, Fraizer and Ali would smash those smaller guys like Dempsey Marciano etc to bits. Can you imagine Marciano, a slow plodding 185 pound man walking forward at George Foreman? Good luck.
Joe Louis was purposely kept away from movers, and those movers that caused him problems couldn’t lace Usyk’s boots, it’s nothing but pure nostalgia all this. I get it, we all like the old guys and should remember and respect them, but let’s be objective and realistic. The best athletes in 2024 are better than they were in the 1940s, pretty obvious to me
I’ve seen guys on here say Jack Johnson would beat a prime Mike Tyson, literally laughable, Johnson would be out of there in about a minute, I mean that literally. One minute.

 

Usyk would have won on points.

 

Were they? How did you figure that out?
Lets compare the sizes of the top contenders plus the champ from 1940 vs 1960 and 1970
(Measurements taken from Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings and boxer records)

1940
Louis 187 cm 203 lbs
Max Baer 191 cm 223 lbs
Godoy 184 cm 202 lbs
Burman 180 cm 192 lbs
Abe Simon 193 cm 254 lbs
Buddy Walker 180 cm 194 lbs
Buddy Baer 198 cm 249 lbs
Pat Comiskey 191 cm 207 lbs
Savold 185 cm 190 lbs
Otis Thomas 180 cm 207 lbs
Lem Franklin 188 cm 200 lbs

Average Height: (187+191+184+180+193+180+198+191+185+180+188)/11 = 187 cm
Average Weight: (203+223+202+192+254+194+249+207+190+207+200)/11 = 211 lbs

1960
Floyd 183 cm 190 lbs
Liston 185 cm 212 lbs
Ingo 184 cm 194 lbs
Machen 183 cm 195 lbs
Folley 185 cm 195 lbs
Cooper 187 cm 189 lbs
Dejohn 189 cm 210 lbs
Cleroux 185 cm 207 lbs
Miteff 185 cm 203 lbs
Richardson 191 cm 204 lbs
Eskrine 180 cm 191 lbs

Average Height: (183+185+184+183+185+187+189+185+185+191+180)/11 = 185.2 cm
Average Weight: (190+212+194+195+195+189+210+207+203+204+191)/11 = 199 lbs

1970
Frazier 182 cm 205 lbs
Ali 191 cm 212 lbs
Foreman 191 cm 215 lbs
Bonavena 179 cm 204 lbs
Quarry 183 cm 197 lbs
Foster 188 cm 210 lbs
Cooper 187 cm 190 lbs
Chuvalo 183 cm 214 lbs
Liston 185 cm 219 lbs
J.Urtain 180 cm 195 lbs
J. Garcia 193 cm 188 lbs

Average Height: (182+191+191+179+183+188+187+183+185+180+193)/11 = 185.6 cm
Average Weight: (205+212+215+204+197+210+190+214+219+195+188)/11 = 204.5 lbs

1940: 187 cm, 211 lbs
1960: 185.2 cm, 199 lbs
1970 185.6 cm, 204.5 lbs

By the way, Doug Jones and Eddie Machen, two of the smartest, fastest 1960s heavyweights, both lost to a light heavyweight who turned pro in the 1940s, Harold Johnson, and both Machen and Jones were in their primes. Johnson btw was utterly demolished by a 36 year old Jersey Joe Walcott in three rounds and lost four out of five fights against a near forty year old Archie Moore. Both Moore and Walcott turned pro in the early 1930s, so how come the superior 1960s guys couldn't do better than them?

They kept him away from all the movers, except Lee Ramage, Bob Pastor, Billy Conn and Jersey Joe Walcott (pretty much the highest ranked "movers" of the Louis era), all of which he fought twice each, all of which were extremely fast heavyweights, all of which were in the top ten when Louis fought them, all of which he defeated, all of which he knocked out. There is not a single heavyweight with as many wins over "movers" as Joe Louis. The only one who comes close is Joe Frazier with wins over Ali, Machen and Ellis*2, that's 4 wins.
You want to talk about "struggling against movers"?
Foreman lost to both movers he faced in his prime, Tyson almost lost to James Tillis, Liston had three fights against Marty Marshall, one loss, two wins, only one of them a KO, he had two fights with a never ranked Whitehurst, zero knockouts, a decision win over Machen, no knockout, so Liston sits at zero knockouts over ranked movers (Marshall never ranked at Heavyweight) and we're talking about one of the best heavyweight punchers here. If the guy is very fast and is determined to survive, stopping them is nearly impossible. Louis struggling before managing to knock them out isn't the criticism you think it is.
Even if you think Usyk is better than Walcott, Conn, Pastor and Ramage, which is fair, you have to face the fact that at 220 lbs he is nowhere close as fast as they were on their feet. You can't call the 1930s guys tiny but then dismiss the undeniable speed (and stamina) advantage they would hold over the modern heavies.
Usyk wouldn't be in the top 5 fastest men Louis would face, and I'll take it a step further, he wouldn't even be as fast as Louis himself. Just because he is too fast for Joshua, Chisora, Dubois and Fury, doesn't mean his speed advantage would translate the same against a 200 lbs Louis who was used to fighting fast 180-200 pounders.
If you want to debate me on Joe Louis's ability, don't come to me with facts you got from the back of the Coco Pops box.

That has nothing to do with anything. Tyson can beat Johnson and Dempsey can beat Buster Douglas or Michael Moorer. One guy beating another doesn't discredit the whole era. Likewise, Marciano using his suicidal style against Foreman and getting sent to the morgue doesn't mean that genius 1930s and 40s counter punchers with great speed couldn't beat Foreman.

 

Usyk has no inside game whatsoever. Everything has to be at long range with him. Louis is complete at any range. Louis stops him

 

You’ve made some very good points and fair enough with the stats and facts, but if I was going to debate every point you just made I’d be typing forever, I will debate on a video call for sure, I don’t think Joe Louis beats Jai Opetaia nevermind Usyk, how’s that?

 

Usyks speed seemed just fine at cruiserweight where he was fighting smaller guys not 240 plus giants.

And cruiser Usyk is only 13 pounds heavier than Walcott (207 vs 194) hardly a big difference

 

To some people, it just feels like the best fighters are bigger or more co-ordinated, & these feelings cement over time into hardened facts.

 

Who are all these "movers" he kept away from? What "movers" gave him trouble?

 

I just scrolled through the thread and found that I've asked this before but I'll say it again:

Why do people always use the current 37 year old Usyk in Heavyweight matchups instead of him in his prime?

Y'all do know that Usyk and Usyks opponents in his prime at Cruiserweight weighed the same or more as what Joe Louis and most of his opponents did at Heavyweight? People keep on saying Usyk would lose to Joe and then citing things that he did whilst fighting Tyson Fury, as if anything he's doing now in his twilight is indicative of his peak H2H ability.

That, and people are talking about Joe Louis's punching power like he's Zhilei Zhang or something. The out of prime Usyk walked into uppercuts from Joshua and wasn't even wobbled, but I'm supposed to believe that a good counter from Joe will knock him out clean? Please.

 

I have no problem with people picking Usyk to win.

I also agree that its unfair to pick current Usyk to represent himself in this match up. But the Usyk of the first Joshua fight was still in his prime.

If you want to pick cruiserweight Usyk, his fight vs Bredis was probably his peak since that was the best fighter he faced at 200.

This would be a great fight.

On the Joshua comparison, Anthony doesn't throw 5-6 punch combinations with the speed and accuracy of Louis. So a 207 lb peak Louis can cause more damage.

See the triple left hook Louis landed on Baer. That is more dangerous than 1-2 big punches from Joshua.

 

And it's not like Louis would have one good moment of throwing a combination, he would be putting them out all night, any given combination from Louis has more accuracy and cold hearted calculation than the sloppiness Usyk finished Fury with