Ken Norton v John L. Sullivan (75 rounds)

How would Choy know that Sullivan hit a lot harder than himself?

Also, I doubt very much that Sullivan was as fast as the 10 years younger Choy as at the time they sparred.

Also, bear in mind that Johnson didn’t weigh much over 170 lbs himself when he faced Choy - made worse for the fact that 170 odd pounds was appreciably below what should’ve been Johnson’s natural weight at a mature 22/23 years of age.

Additionally, Johnson might’ve cited Choy as connecting with the hardest punch felt by an underfed and relatively green Johnson but Johnson faced several powerful hitters who weren’t able to reach a bigger, stronger and more resilient Johnson as cleanly as Choy did back in 1901.

In all potential, McVey and Langford may well have been at least equal or even more powerful hitters than Choy.

Corbett fought Sullivan but also nominated Choy as the hardest puncher he ever faced - even though Choy never KO’d Jim. Does that mean Choy hit harder than Sullivan?

Of course we understand that Sullivan wasn’t able to reach Corbett which returns to the point, as illustrated above, that due context should be accounted for and factored in.

 

Ken might end up on the floor here.

 

Norton would need 75 rounds to beat Sullivan, he’d do him in 1.

 

Why wouldn’t Joe be able to assess the difference in he and Sullivan’s power? He did spar him pretty often in 1891, and went as far as to say that if he had Sullivan’s power that he would’ve KO’d Goddard. Clearly, his experiences with Sullivan significantly influenced this opinion on the matter. Johnson reflected on Joe’s power as an older man as well so he had time to reflect on his power compared to McVea’s and Langford’s, not to mention Fitz, Jeffries and Corbett also called Joe the hardest hitter they faced. Jeffries flip-flopped between he and Fitz from the second fight though, I think there’s a lot of proof to give Choynski an argument as the hardest hitter of his generation. At the very least, in the top 5 hardest hitters of his era. Sullivan being described as on a different level of power by Choynski himself speaks levels.

“His right arm don’t do any swinging; it comes across like a flash of lightning with a jerk, and if he misses he’s so quick you can’t get your head out of range before it’s back ready for another shot at your jaw, and how it does fly, ping, ping. I think he’ll land on Jackson right enough if he meets him.” Referee, September 9, 1891.

“I don’t think he (Goddard) would have a ghost of a show with Sullivan. You see, it’s this way. Sullivan is quicker than I am, and he hits with terrible power. If I had a tenths of Sullivan’s force I’d have beaten Goddard both times I fought him, but I hadn’t it.” Referee, September 23, 1891.

This forces many questions; how good was Sullivan in 1891? If you read contemporary reviews of Jackson-Corbett you will also see people say that the consensus was that even a dissipated Sullivan would batter the two. Corbett even believed that Jackson wouldn’t be able to beat the Sullivan that he beat due to styles.

There’s also the possibility that most of Sullivan’s deterioration happened between 1891 and 1892, that’s one full year after all and at that age that’s all a fighter really needs to lose what they once had. This is especially relevant considering Sullivan’s diet consisted of beer and would be drunk for weeks on end.

And the most important question of all: how in the hell did you get banned?

 

I do not consider John L a world champion.

 

If two fighters spar a lot, it is not unrealistic to think that they might form an opinion of who hit harder.

Let's look at Choynski's own words:

"I don't think that he'd have a ghost of a show with Sullivan (Joe Goddard). You see it's this way. Sullivan is quicker than I am, and he hits with terrible power. If I had a tenth of Sullivan's force, I'd have beaten Goddard both times I fight him, but I hadn't it."

"His right hand don't do any swingin, it comes across like a flash of lighting with a jerk, and if he misses he's back so quick, you can't get your head out of range before it's back and ready for another shot at your jaw, and how it does fly ping ping."

He said that two years after the Killrain fight.

I don't entirely trust fighters estimates of who hit them harder, but I trust their judgement of it more than yours.

 

it's a lot closer than under modern rules.

i gotta pick norton.

 

Then you are wrong.

 

BUT how would Choy actually assess the difference in power?

As to speed, Corbett was easily running circles around John L in the following year - I can’t reconcile that much dissipation over such a relatively short period of time.

Re Johnson, my point was Jack could’ve been being totally honest about it being the hardest punch he ever felt - but he was green and severely underweight and his defence firmed up a lot more in the ensuing years - making assessment of the true power of the other punchers he faced somewhat problematic.

Jeffries primarily nominated Fitz as the hardest puncher he faced - but I won’t pretend that Jeff didn’t afford Choy as having notable power FOR his size - as a few others testified to also, as you mentioned.

As to your most important question - you tell me and we’ll both know, LOL!

 

Valid points, though we would have to assume Choynski had some way of assessing Sullivan's power compared to his own even if we don't know exactly how, considering that he felt the need to say it at all. Clearly something about his experiences with Sullivan brought him to believe Sullivan was both faster and more powerful than himself, even a dissipated one, and what we know about Choynski does suggest freakish power even with the points listed. Johnson may have been green, as were Jeffries and Corbett, but something about Choynski drove all of those fighters to name him as the hardest puncher at some point in their careers. Clearly, Joe had very memorable power, to say the least.

Maybe this could be used to inflate Corbett's win against Sullivan just a little bit; a shell of the man he once was, but probably not a man completely devoid of ability or speed by that stage. Maybe, Corbett's own speed just made a Sullivan look that slow and clumsy though it can't be ignored that he still wasn't the man he was in 1889 let alone 1882. Maybe Sullivan, by 1892, was still that many levels beyond everyone else aside from Jackson and Corbett.

Another variable we can use to more accurately assess Sullivan's power is through Patsy Cardiff, who didn't want to go anywhere near Sullivan in their fight due to merely tasting his right hand even though he admitted that he knew Sullivan's left was gone. Compare this to how Cardiff fought Killen, probably the other most noteworthy puncher in the mid-1880s, in their fights; he was far more aggressive and pushed the pace against Killen by the reports of their first encounter.

 

Again, exactly how would they determine who hit harder? Of course, one has to also factor individual resilience into the equation.

I’m not telling you who to trust - trust who you will but it should be done even handedly, objectively and with due deference to context. I have utmost trust in my own ability to do same.

 

I'll review some Sullivan tapes on YouTube before I make a final decision but off the top,of my head I see Norton beating John L in a bloody 15 round ko.

 

If you took a sparring session with lets say Daniel Dubois, you woudl have a clear idea who hit harder, because it woudl not be very close.

It woudl be clear to you with every punch thrown, which of you as faster.

Go back and review every testimony about Choynski's power, then read what Choynski said about a two year retied Sullivan.

There is nothing very definite about it of course.

It is Jack the Ripper grade evidence.

However what Choynski is telling you, is that Sullivan was an absolute monster in his prime, and his testimony is taken seriously into the Jack Johnson era.

 

Agreed, there's just too many testimonies to Choynski's power for me to say he isn't on the level of a Fitz, or a Langford. Finishing ability however, is likely what separates them from him.

Regardless, whether Joe is more or less powerful, he's certainly on their level.

 

Of course there’s no question Sullivan had power that Choy claims to have felt and been impressed by.

I haven’t read the contemporary report for Corbett vs Sullivan in a long while but I seem to recall it describing Sullivan as slow and not looking to too hot overall - even allowing for Corbett’s relative speed advantage - and I can’t reconcile Choy himself being as slow as that and I would say he also wasn’t as disposed to running as much as Corbett was.