How do some people rank Louis over Ali?

Agreed completely on Marciano.

 

I don't see where Baer has an advantage, Norton is better defensively, physically stronger, better overall athlete, etc

 

Schmeling was better in most ways than Baer, it doesn’t work that way necessarily. Baer is just about as hard & vicious a puncher as Norton has ever encountered - & we know what his kryptonite was.

 

57-1 before retiring with his only defeat avenged in absolutely emphatic fashion.

Faced 4 lineal champs in his first 2 years of his career.

Billy Conn is rated higher all time than Frazier, Foreman & Liston, so yes he does have a win over an opponent better than them, although he was a light heavyweight.

 

Agreed.
Sometimes when I watch the fight back I forget Schmeling actually lost it and get surprised still hahah.

How do you explain that?

 

Baer actually used an accurate jab to time Schmeling as he was coming in, overly aggressively.
Then he was ripping 8 punch combinations with hooks and uppercuts, most landing on Schmeling's guard but they were wearing him down. Given Baer's impressive stamina (best condition he'd ever been in) his punches never lost their weight, and he was consistently throwing them throughout the fight.
Lastly, it was an underperforming version of Schmeling, the same one who would lose to Steve Hamas just after.
It was a competitive fight but Schmeling fought Baer's fight by coming to him so much and getting tagged with the jabs, he also didn't back away effectively which allowed Baer to throw his combinations, a mistake he wouldn't make against Louis.
1936 Schmeling probably outclasses Baer, but it's still a good win for Baer regardless.

 

1 thing you also have to wonder is would this even be a debate if Ali didn’t receive every favourable decision in a close fight?

Young, Norton II, Norton III, Shavers, Doug Jones. Even 1 of these decisions going against him emphasises even more how consistent and utterly dominant Louis was compared to every other heavyweight champion in history… as if that wasn’t incredibly obvious already.

Louis has Walcott, but he knocked him out in an immediate rematch and would have only been the second blemish in his record at that point

 

Interesting point. The dodgy calls started coming for Ali after Zaire, so on one hand you could excuse what were realistically losses as being a result of age, but on the other, yes it would dent his standing to be dethroned when, on paper, he wasn’t until Spinks.

Real-world, Ali reigns from 1974-76, where Norton plainly beat him. An excusable loss? Very much so, given Ali’s age & leg damage, but it cuts his second reign in half, & deflates his overall record by rights.

 

This post has made me think surely less people would feel comfortable calling Ali the GOAT at heavyweight if he was 1-2 vs Norton.

Also it slipped my mind that all Norton 3, Young and Shavers were all after Manila, he seemed to be given rounds on the basis of absorbing punishment well as opposed to actually scoring points. Although you are right, after Manila you can hardly blame Ali for anything that happened in the ring to him Manila

 

Louis should've retired after knocking out Walcott.

The arguments for Louis are he beat more ranked fighters, had a very consistent long title reign.

But I don't think that can overcome the sheer quality of opponents Ali beat it's just a ridiculous resume honestly that no Heavyweight can compete with.

 

I think that's the key. Jones and Norton 2 were competitive and close, but not really controversial. The controversial decisions came when Ali only was a shadow of his former self, so for most they don't seem to matter much.

 

Baer didn't demonstrate his power on durable opposition. Schaaf is really his only somewhat impressive knockout. His other foes were kayoed quicker by non-punchers. George Foreman would be Baer's kryptonite as well

 

Yes, Baer did. You wouldn’t call Carnera durable!? Have you watched this fight?

& Norton wasn’t durable anyway. 188lb moderate punching JL Garcia stopped him cold.

 

Carnera was taken out more quickly by Leroy Haynes of all people

who did Nova stop outside of Baer again?

 

The first part of this comment is crucial. If you can't write the numbers down in order, you're almost handicapping your ability to rank Louis above Ali. Maybe even completely.