Joe Frazier is unproven

The smaller, seek-and-destroy types never have long stays at the top. Dempsey (his stay was long because of inactivity and some very well selected opponents), Marciano, Frazier, Tyson... Given his physical limitations and style (and penchant for partying), Joe was never going to stick around long enough to have a well rounded resume. Ali, Ellis, Quarryx2, Mathis, Chuvalo, Bonavenax2, Machen... Not the worst resume considering the aforementioned wins are a full quarter of his short career.

 

I think that’s sort of OPs point which is being a big neglected because of the presentation of the claim. Frazier is indeed unproven against certain types of fighters.

 

Frazier partied and drank a lot early on in his career so it was believed by those around him he’d have a short time in boxing… then there’s the injuries, the eye his medical issues etc.

 

Even with respect to GF, Joe left him looking very clearly as if he'd been in a fight after their rematch.

Frazier ALWAYS fought to win, never to survive. In the Foreman rematch, he was trying to drag the big guy into deep water to drown him.

 

I missed the part where Norton became unified champion in the ring.

 

Couldn’t agree more, Galento in 2

 

In the rematch, given a few more rounds, Joe did land a few of his trademark whistling left hooks, leaving a bruise on Foreman’s cheek.

Joe also landed at least one very good hook in Jamaica but it was very early, before George lowered the boom.

The way Foreman took those hooks proved that he always had a great chin I think.

The modified Foreman also resisted shoving Joe around for several rounds but in the last round or so he resorted to old habits and copped a warning for same IIRC.

 

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To me, Frazier-JQ II was a far more impressive win for Joe that Norton's career peak performance later was against an utterly shot Bellflower Bomber. Frazier actually brought Jerry down with the best body shot of his career.

 

What do you consider to be Norton's "quality wins"? - Ali, Young, Quarry, Bobick, Cobb, who else?

Frazier has Ali, Quarry x2, Ellis x2, Bonavena x2, Chuvalo, Mathis, Bugner, Foster, Jones, even Machen was coming off a recent career resurgence.

Frazier actually has a surprisingly deep resume crammed into a relatively short amount of time.

& this doesn't even touch on Norton's habit of taking advantage of Frazier leftovers.

In terms of actual wins, Norton's resume is overall rather sparse IMO. His legacy is largely dependent upon his performances in fights he officially lost.

Doug Jones was no less of a puncher than Jose Luis Garcia was.

 

Now you're just trolling or flat out lying. Ali despite losing gave one of his career best performances in TFOTC, and would've beaten many ATGs that night.

Against Norton in their first bout, Ali hardy trained and had come in at a career high weight up to that point in his career. His output was not even half of what it was in TFOTC. Despite this, Norton beat him nowhere near as decisively as Frazier did, and didn't come close to knocking him down despite breaking his jaw.

I take my trolling and lying accusations back. You flat out dbksab.

Their top five wins.

Frazier
1. Ali UD in perhaps the biggest fight of all time, taking the GOAT's zero to establish himself as lineal champion.
2. Ellis 1. Stoppage in 4. Taking all the championships available at the time.
3. Quarry 1. Stoppage in 7.
4. Bob Foster. ATG LHW champion moving up to heavyweight. No Foster wasn't a force at heavyweight, but he managed to give Ali trouble, inflicting the only cut in Ali's career.
5. Quarry 2. A much fresher version of Quarry who was on a 6 fight win streak including wins over Lyle and Shavers.

Norton
1. Ali SD
2. Young. SD where the ref stated if he factored into the cards, he would've given it to Young.
3. Stoppage over a shot Quarry who actually rocked him a couple times.
4. Cobb. A somewhat disputable bout where Norton conceded to Cobb at the end of the fight "You kicked my ass tonight."
5. Bobick..... lol

Frazier's win over Ali is better than Norton's entire resume. Hell Frazier's win over Ellis is better than Norton's entire resume except his win over Ali (tbh you can make an argument it's better than Norton's win over a lazy, fat, unmotivated Ali). Frazier's fifth best win is also better than Norton's third best win.

So no, Norton did not have better wins than Frazier in any metric but keep convincing yourself otherwise.

 

Frazier is proven.
The wins over Elis and Ali are completely legitimate.
To declare that Frazier, who has one of the biggest hearts in the history of the heavyweight division, is unproven - is a meaningless statement.

 

I have to disagree with you here somewhat Swag you're not taking into account certain aspects.

Norton vs Ali 1 was only 12 rounds and Frazier vs Ali 1 was 15 rounds, Norton was beating up Ali in the last 2 rounds and if that fight had been 15 rounds it would've been alot wider as Ali was in clear distress and in real pain from the broken jaw.

I also had Norton vs Ali 1 7-4-1 and i had Frazier vs Ali 1 8-7 with 2 rounds that i scored 10-8, i think both fights were competitive but Frazier did far more damage overall and had bigger rounds. It also had to be said Ali was in better form vs Frazier, but then again Ali was also coming off a pretty significant lay off only fighting 18 rounds in 3 years coming into Frazier fight.

I know we've disagreed on this before but i'm standing by that i think Ali in the 2nd Norton fight was the best version of Ali we see in the 70s and that fight was still very close and competitive which shows Norton was a quality fighter.

I think Frazier has a better resume than Norton i think that's a no brainer but the fact alot of people feel Norton should be 2-1 against Ali also does have to be taken into account.

 

Context. Frazier was the first guy to ever floor Ellis and he did it multiple times. Jimmy dropped Bonavena twice, once with a hook, the other with a cross. The only other man to ever officially deck Ellis was Shavers. (I acknowledge that Harold Valan blew the call when Patterson decked Ellis in Stockholm.) Prime Ali halted Jimmy in 12, but only Frazier stopped him twice. Lyle, Jerry Quarry, Bonavena, Chuvalo and Leotis couldn't land Ellis.

Because of Foreman, post FOTC Frazier's chin gets short shrift, but Bugner rated his chin the best of anybody Bugner faced. Jumbo Cummings barely missed one punching Bruno. In Frazier's final bout, he took a bunch of those shots from Jumbo.

No, Norton does not do as well in a rematch with Big George as Frazier did.

In 1970, it's entirely possible that Bob Foster would've done the same thing to a 26 year old Norton that Garcia had just done. (Think about it. Bob and Jose were about the same height and weight, but BF was obviously far greater.) Yes, I do think 1970 Bob Foster qualifies as an elite opponent for Joe, especially in the way Frazier wiped him out. On one hand, it sometimes seems Bob's vaunted power disappeared like magic above 175. On the other hand, nobody crushed him like Joe during his career peak.

Does Ken Norton win ten consecutive HW Title fights and unify all claims in the wake of Ali's exile? Not ever!

Only two guys stopped Machen during the meat of Eddie's career, and both put him on the deck in the opening round. Know who did NOT do this? Peak Liston (even though Machen was one armed for that one), Bob Baker, Zora Folley (who could hit) 2X, Bonavena 2X, Summerlin, peak Big Cat, Doug Jones, Harold Johnson (who could hit and play with HWs), and DeJohn 2X. Only two guys scored near knockdowns on Frazier in later rounds, Machen and Bugner (in Bugner's greatest career performance). Eddie Machen was hell. Joe Frazier ruined him.


Ken Norton never had a stoppage win on the level of Ellis 2X, Machen, Jerry Quarry 2X (actually making Jerry turn away in concession the second time), Doug Jones, Chuvalo (who also turned away in concession to Frazier), peak Mathis, and he was the first to stop the uber rugged Stander.

Does Ken Norton stay on his feet and draw with Jumbo Cummings on December 3, 1981? (Bear in mind Kenny was killed earlier that year and his career was over when Joe fought Jumbo well enough that I do not think that draw was any kind of "gift." In fact it was a crowd pleasing scrap in Chicago and Frazier won round nine on all cards.)

Norton blew the rubber match to a post Inoki Ali. Frazier produced Manila.

Not only does Joe have the better wins, he has the nobler losses by far. He kept getting up and attacking in Jamaica, then actually climbed back in the ring when hopelessly arthritic, going blind and over 20 pounds beyond his best weight of 203, then remained on his feet longer than any other guy who got decked by first career Foreman. (I don't think Joe gets enough credit for their rematch, a situation where he never took a forwards step, yet got through four rounds on his feet and out of a number of tough spots in the process, raising some questions about what pre FOTC Frazier might have done against George.) Does anybody really think Ken gets in the ring with Foreman a second time?


How does anybody possibly think Ken belongs in the same ballpark as Joe? One's a top five ATG. The other freaked out at the realization, "This guy can hurt me!"

Does Scott LeDoux last the distance with even a 1979 version of an always relentless Frazier?