Was Floyd Patterson an ATG?

Floyd actually engaged in 11 title fights in seven years (Moore, Jackson, Rademacher, Harris, London, Ingo, Ingo, Ingo, McNeeley, Liston and Liston) and won eight.

Six title fights (one title fight a year, win or lose) in six years is basically the norm for the current generation of fighters.

Patterson nearly doubled that number of title fights in that period. (In fact, he ended up fighting in 13 title fights. His record in those 13 title fights is 8-5.)

As far as giving title fights to debuting fighters, Fury tried to give a title shot to a debuting fighter (Ngannou), but the WBC wouldn't sanction it. Ali tried to give a title shot to Teofilo Stevenson in 1976/1977, but Stevenson declined. (No org would've blocked it.)

Floyd wasn't overly protected (although that is his rep). In his 13 title fights, he fought a Hall of Famer in seven of those title fights. Not many guys have engaged in seven heavyweight title fights with Hall of Famers, before or since.

Floyd may have been considered the underdog against half the champions in history, since more than half came AFTER Patterson held the title.

But he wouldn't have been the underdog against those who came before him. And he beats nearly all of them.

 

That's an interesting comment. Do I understand you correctly? You think that Patterson would have beaten nearly all the heavyweight champs who came before him? Jack Johnson? Dempsey? Tunney? Schmeling? Sharkey? Louis? Walcott? Charles and Marciano? Which of those I just mentioned would Patterson have defeated?

 

To be fair, is top 20 not ATG level? Top 20, seems like a very exclusive class no?

 

I really don't think their's much of an argument that he ducked anyone outside of Machen and Folley. He almost certainly would've beaten Folley who was chinned by much lesser fighters.

Machen is harder to predict because he was also inconsistent but I think the huge disparity in speed would take Patterson home. Machen wasn't used to being the slower fighter. Even Cleveland Williams' speed threw him off guard, and he had to settle for a draw.

 

Yes he just doesn't feel like one. The way to look at it is how many 6 ft 0 190 kinda HWs were clearly better than him? And its really just Gene Tunney with another half dozen or so having a good shot. Patterson was really the culmination of that archetype.

If Patterson isn't an ATG we've really got to DQ everyone his size. You can't pretend Marciano or Charles would have translated to later eras and Patterson wouldn't have obliterated everyone in his path if he fought 10 years earlier.

 

I wasn’t talking about how many title fights he engaged in. I’m talking about how many he won. And yeah I omitted the vacant title fight with Moore where he won the crown. Patterson was not a very active champion and was steered clear of Williams, Folley, Machen ( and Liston for as long as he could be. ).

 

Floyd defended his title against the guys who BEAT UP Williams, Foley and Machen ... namely Ingo and Sonny.

If he fought Williams, Foley and Machen instead of Ingo and Liston, he'd be accused of ducking the two best of his era. Two guys who proved in the ring they were better than the others.

In fact, he fought Ingo and Liston five times in title fights. And then Floyd beat Machen.

And, speaking of activity, how many heavyweight champions in boxing history have won EIGHT heavyweight title fights by the time they were 26, like Floyd?

Hell, how many have won eight heavyweight title fights, period?

Floyd was really the last of the smaller (below 200 pounds) champions. But he was an all time great in his own right.

 

Yes.

Again, IMO he's the single most disrespected fighter on this forum because (a.) of the way Cus D'Amato allegedly "protected" him, and there's a sense of unfairness attached to that that diminishes Patterson in some people's eyes even though he had nothing personally to do with it; and (2.) the two times he crapped the bed against Liston who was absolutely an ATG and simply was a physical and stylistic mismatch for Patterson although the mental pressure on Patterson in those fights, even from the fricking president of the United States, was just as damaging.

 

Only Louis would be a sure thing to win, IMO.

None of the others before him were significantly bigger, stronger, faster and could hit harder. Patterson was a hard puncher.

How many punchers floored Quarry? How many people knocked out Henry Cooper - not stopped him on cuts, but knocked him out? He left Johansson unconscious with his foot trembling. How many people in 220 fights knocked out Archie Moore?

 

In every sense it is.
Floyd Patterson is the youngest LINEAL HW Champion in history, and the first two-time HW World Champion in history.

 

That’s a straw man argument. “ he fought and lost to the guys who beat the guys that he avoided when they were relevant. “ That never bodes well in a lot of boxing arguments. Hell Larry Holmes BEAT the guys who BEAT the guys he avoided and still gets grief for it ( as he should. ).

2. yes he got brutally beat twice in a single round by Liston after dodging him for close to two years and won 2 out of 3 against ingo who was only really recognized for beating Patterson himself.

3. How many of them won a vacant title against a 40 year old non indigenous to the heavyweight division opponent and then proceeded to defend it against Brian London, Tom Mcneeley, Pete Rademacher and Tommy Jackson ?

4. Deontay wilder had 11 title fights in just under 5 years, winning 10 and getting a draw. And did so against albeit weak opposition but no worse than Pattersons. Do you consider him an ATG ?


In conclusion, I’ve already listed both the pros AND cons of Floyd Patterson’s career and given him what I believe to be a fair balance of credit and criticism. I said he deserved to be in the hall of fame and even achieved some shades of greatness but that’s as far as I go.

 

It's not. If Floyd Patterson defended against Eddie Machen instead of Ingemar Johansson, and Floyd defended against Zora Folley instead of Sonny Liston ... you'd bash him for that.

The top heavyweight when Marciano retired was Hall of Famer Archie Moore. Floyd knocked out Archie Moore.

Floyd had five top heavyweights during his reign. He fought the two best (Ingo and Liston, both Hall of Famers) out of the five ... and fought them five times in title fights.

Folley, Machen (who Floyd beat), and Williams aren't hall of famers. They weren't better than Liston and Ingo.

Nobody was better after Marciano than Archie Moore, Ingemar Johansson, Sonny Liston and Muhammad Ali.

Floyd fought them all and Machen, too.

You're bashing a guy who fought Archie, Ingo, Ingo, Ingo, Liston, Liston, Machen and Ali ... because he didn't fight Zora Folley, too?

So what?

 

I’m not bashing shlt.. that is a complete misrepresentation of literally everything that I’ve said. You have completely missed the point entirely. The fact that he fought ingo and Sonny instead of Machen, Folley and Williams is irrelevant given that some of those guys were all highly ranked before the aforementioned men emerged. He also fought a debuting opponent in a match that was billed for the world title.