Double Standards

Do people really hate Holmes for that? Maybe at the time they did, having watched Ali’s career live. I don’t know that that’s the case for those less attached to Ali, & in any case, it’s a fairly unsubstantiated complaint. Lots of more valid criticisms of Holmes, & I will now list them one by o…kidding.

Id give a pass to Ali for Moore, too. That was very early on, he was looking to make a name for himself, that’s understandable. Williams is entirely a different kettle of fish. To hear people fawn over it is sickening. Ali himself bragged about how well he performed. What a dickhead, honestly.

 

It is about sentimentality at the end of the day.

People don't like to see their idols beaten, especially when they are a shadow of their former self.

A woman confronted Larry Holmes at the airport once over his fight with Ali.

"Lady it was him or me."

I think that in both these cases, teh younger fighter needed to take the fight.

 

Yes, Ali defeated Williams a year after Williams was shot by a police officer, but it doesn’t change the fact that Ali would have beaten any heavyweight that night. That fight was Ali’s best performance. As for Holmes, I’ve honestly never understood the hate directed at him for that fight. No one knew Ali had Parkinson’s at the time, but it was clear he wouldn’t quit on his own against Holmes. The decision made by Ali’s corner was absolutely the right one.

 

Based on what? On his beating Williams!? Noooo thank you.

 

It is not true that Williams was not rated in the top 10. He (somehow) lingered in the rankings. It was absolutely disgraceful and had more to do with what he accomplished prior to the shooting, very similar to Machen's ranking upon his return from the looney bin.

That being said, Ali's performance against Williams was still very impressive even with context. Yes, in their primes, Ali would likely have been the one flat on his back, staring up at the astrodome lights in that infamous photo but it's not Ali's fault Williams was shot (literally).
Other contenders who faced an even more faded version of Williams had a much tougher fight. Chuvalo was taken the distance, rocked on numerous occasions, and lost a somewhat close bout where the commentators speculated Williams might get the decision.

Mac Foster, a huge puncher in his own right took longer to KO an even further depleted Williams, and struggled in both their bouts, rupturing his ear drum in the first bout, and according to The Ring Magazine(who actually rated that round, the fifth best round of the year) was on the losing end of a fierce exchange before unleashing a murderous left hook to end things in the rematch.
So no I don't buy that this win is unimpressive, solely because of Williams condition. It's really not as simple as "anyone would've looked good against that version of Williams lolz" as everyone here makes it out to be.

Nobody replicated such a performance against Williams, before or after.

 

Did I read that right!? Did you pick prime Williams to KO prime Ali?

 

To me, nothing says causal like hating Holmes for this.

1. Ali could still fight when he previously fought. Was he looking kinda shot? Yes. Was he looking incapable of fighting? Absolutely not.
2. No sane observer could have thought Ali had a snowball's chance in hell by that point. I rate Holmes at his best (which he was around that time) at about equal to post-exile Ali at his best. And by the time Ali fought Holmes, he was FAR past his post-exile best.
3. Ali wanted the fight and promoted it because he wanted/needed the money.
4. If Holmes had refused the fight, what would Ali have done? He'd have mocked him publicly, called him out publicly. The public would have insulted Holmes, called him out as a fake impersonator. Serious, wtf was Holmes supposed to do? He supposed to let his own rep and legacy go to **** simply to be subservient to Ali?
5. Again, the last Holmes had saw of Ali was Ali's prior fight, in which Ali still looked capable of fighting. Did Holmes think "I've got this no issue" when he took the fight? I'm sure he did. Did he think "this guy won't be able to pick his hands up?" No.
6. Oh, what happened when Tyson stomped [checks boxrec again] 38 year old Holmes? "Got revenge!" No hate on Tyson for beating up an old legend?

Just irritating.

 

Correct. But that shouldn't diminish Ali's performance against him. It's not his fault Williams was shot.

 

$10 says you’re trolling.

 

Ali was twenty years old when he fought Archie Moore. He was a very young man. Compare it to how subdued he was when he beat Floyd Patterson as an older man. He gave Floyd his flowers and said I won on cuts

 

You've got to look at each situation different. Moores title reign and "prime" started at around the same age Ali was retiring. Ali hadn't fought in 2 years when he fought Holmes and Holmes was undefeated champ.

Cleveland Williams earned the shot in 1966. While Williams often wasn't in the top 10 at that point hes probably top 5. His only loss since Liston had been a split decision to Terrell who he'd stopped in their first fight. Terrell was WBA champ at the time. I don't see how at that point how Williams isn't top 5. Obviously that wasn't Williams peak physically but in terms of the rankings that was the height of his career.

 

It's totally ridiculous that anyone would hate Holmes or Ali for those victories over Ali and Williams,respectively. Both men were simply doing their jobs. Same with Muhammad against Archie Moore - a crossroads fight that both men wanted.