Jimmy Ellis was a fledgling middleweight. Angelo Dundee turned him into a near great heavyweight

ThatOne · Nov 29, 2024

Jackomano said: ↑

This. Dundee was very good at adjusting to the needs of each fighter he was training or managing. Ellis had a lot of talent, but outside of Kentucky he wasn’t much of an attraction besides being Ali's sparring partner, so it made little since for most managers to invest much time or money into him.

Dundee took on the challenge and risk of training and managing Ellis and they made a great team. Dundee promoted Ellis to the hilt and believed with the right handling Ellis was a heavyweight champion in the making and was proven right against a lot of naysayers.

Here is a piece by Sam Lacy, who was sports writing royalty. He and a lot of other sportswriters thought Dundee was crazy to promote Ellis as an upcoming champion.

Hard to believe

Listening to Angelo Dundee the other day, I found myself more disillusioned than ever by boxing, if that be possible.

...Angelo has long been regarded one of the few beacons in a sport that is admittedly beset with double-double-talkers and dealers.

...Then he pops off about his new heavyweight hope, Jimmy Ellis...

"He's the best fighter in the world," asserted the former manager of Cassius (Muhammad Ali) Clay ...

"He's always been the best, all he needs is to believe in himself" ... Ellis, in the eyes of this writer and I'm sure to many others in my group, is strictly a second-rate sparring partner who is going nowhere, and not even getting there fast ... And after listening to Dundee urge Ellis to believe in him-self, one is shocked to discover how hard it is to now believe in Dundee.

And on the subject of Clay, it is interesting to note that the Florida Sprotswriters Association included the deposed heavyweight champion's name among the 13 nominees for enshrinement in the Florida Hal of Fame at Jacksonville.
https://imgur.com/55gQGFQ

Here is a piece with Dundee reflected on Ali's development and on the most important things a fighter needs to be successful when developing.

Ali was Always Dedicated

"He's the greatest," Dundee believes, echoing Ali's favorite self-pronouncement. "I started with him when he was fighting six round prelims. Muhammad was the first guy in the gym and the last guy to leave. He was a nice kid, full of pep and ginger. He wanted to learn."

And Angelo Dundee is a teacher. He calls the Miami gym he and his brother Chris run a "school." Fighting preliminary bouts are "taking lessons."

"The most difficult thing about a young fighter is his emotion, Steadiness, consistency, that's what wins."

Ali used his talent consistently enough to become heavyweight champion of the world. What else could a professor of boxing ask of a pupil?

"Muhammad's responsible for my son going to college. He's made it possible for me to put a pool into my backyard." Dundee noted.

The short, spectacled man from Miami was in Ali's corner for nearly every "lesson." He saw the education pay off in a series of lopsided title defenses as the then champion made every serious contender in the 1960's look about as competent as the opponents from his prelim days.
https://imgur.com/DZ80rMf
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I notice here and on boxrec there's a concerted effort to denigrate him. Maybe he should have built himself up and not his fighters. Training a free spirit like Ali couldn't be easy. Archie Moore couldn't do it. And Angie had to do it with the NOI looking over his shoulder.

bolo specialist · Nov 29, 2024

ThatOne said: ↑

I notice here and on boxrec there's a concerted effort to denigrate him. Maybe he should have built himself up and not his fighters.
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No one who saw Ellis get dominated by Rubin Carter as a MW would've ever imagined that he'd be dumping full-fledged HWs like Bonavena on their @$$es several years later.

Dundee's greatest feat may have been molding Basilio from a barroom brawler into 1 of the greatest inside technicians/pressure fighters in history.

ThatOne · Nov 29, 2024

bolo specialist said: ↑

No one who saw Ellis get dominated by Rubin Carter as a MW would've ever imagined that he'd be dumping full-fledged HWs like Bonavena on their @$$es several years later.

Dundee's greatest feat may have been molding Basilio from a barroom brawler into 1 of the greatest inside technicians/pressure fighters in history.
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He guided Willie Pastrano to a win over Harold Johnson.

bolo specialist · Nov 29, 2024

ThatOne said: ↑

He guided Willie Pastrano to a win over Harold Johnson.
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An enormous upset @the time, even if it was highly controversial as well.

ThatOne · Nov 29, 2024

Some coaches and managers try to reinvent athletes. The good ones, IMHO, make them the best versions of themselves.

ThatOne · Nov 29, 2024

bolo specialist said: ↑

An enormous upset @the time, even if it was highly controversial as well.
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Harold might have been a bit past it, but he wasn't so far past it that Pastrano was a 6-1 dog.

Glass City Cobra · Nov 29, 2024

he grant said: ↑

He is 28 now, and he has been a black fighter for over a decade. To be a black fighter, even the least carnivorous of managers will agree, is a "stomped down life, a stone-hard road." Few pamper the black fighter. He has to fight from the moment he steps in a gym. It is an axiom among white fight managers: "You have to find out early if the black boy has any dog in him."
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I am very confused by this quote.

Jimmy Ellis didn't become black until he was about 18 years old? Was he the first transracial boxer...?

newurban99 · Nov 29, 2024

ThatOne said: ↑

Harold might have been a bit past it, but he wasn't so far past it that Pastrano was a 6-1 dog.
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Harold Johnson won that fight just as sure as I'm writing this sentence. I've never been more shocked by a decision.

ThatOne · Nov 29, 2024

If Angie doesn't push Ali out into the ring when he thought he was intentionally blinded the history of boxing and yes the nation looks a lot different.

Saintpat · Nov 29, 2024

Journeyman92 said: ↑

He wasn’t “near great” IMO but If you’re wondering what Angie did he managed Ellis well and wrapped his hands "I love Angelo and I think he's great, but he didn't teach me how to fight." - Muhammad Ali - He didn’t add anything to Ellis as a fighter, I think Ellis was just a good middleweight who held the weight well enough that he figured he could outsmart some big dumb heavyweights for the bigger pay checks, he had some miscalculations and I think it was because he was to me seemingly an aggressive guy by nature but overall he did well for himself and got paid a lot.
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Muhammad Ali on Angelo Dundee:

“He’s one of the best in the world. You see, a real TRAINER, when he gets a real fighter, he don’t have to train him, just COACH HIM ON WHAT TO DO and who he’s fighting and WHAT TYPE STYLE TO FIGHT, what to look for, WHAT HIS WEAK POINTS ARE.

“But to drill you every day on how to punch, I had that when I got to him.”

Don’t believe the quote? Think it was taken out of context? Watch it yourself:

This content is protected

ThatOne · Nov 29, 2024

Saintpat said: ↑

Muhammad Ali on Angelo Dundee:

“He’s one of the best in the world. You see, a real TRAINER, when he gets a real fighter, he don’t have to train him, just COACH HIM ON WHAT TO DO and who he’s fighting and WHAT TYPE STYLE TO FIGHT, what to look for, WHAT HIS WEAK POINTS ARE.

“But to drill you every day on how to punch, I had that when I got to him.”

Don’t believe the quote? Think it was taken out of context? Watch it yourself:

This content is protected

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That thread where some dude said Luis Sarria was his real trainer was something else. Anything to denigrate Angie.

JohnThomas1 · Nov 29, 2024

Mark Anthony said: ↑

He just ran around the place and pot-shotted here and there, getting exposed at world title level, Dundee knew nothing about boxing.

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If only Dundee had the wisdom of wizards such as Fouts Boxing Theory, Raf (exlusive2.0) and all those other couch youtube superstars (that mesmerize you) at his disposal, he coulda had some real champs! Ali and Leonard may never have been beaten with such proven guru's behind them.

P.S. Are you not aware Dundee had numerous fighters that overcame decent sized reach disadvantages and won? Damn miracles, all of them!

Saintpat · Dec 8, 2024

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

If only Dundee had the wisdom of wizards such as Fouts Boxing Theory, Raf (exlusive2.0) and all those other couch youtube superstars (that mesmerize you) at his disposal, he coulda had some real champs! Ali and Leonard may never have been beaten with such proven guru's behind them.

P.S. Are you not aware Dundee had numerous fighters that overcame decent sized reach disadvantages and won? Damn miracles, all of them!
Click to expand...

I think boxing can be divided into three eras:

Bare-knuckled

Gloved

YouTube Expert

The latter, of course, elevated the sport beyond all comprehension of those who came before. It’s amazing any pre-YouTubers could even put two punches together.

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Jimmy Ellis was a fledgling middleweight. Angelo Dundee turned him into a near great heavyweight

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Jimmy Ellis was a fledgling middleweight. Angelo Dundee turned him into a near great heavyweight

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