Do you still view Fury as an all time Head to Head fighter?

Usyk could beat anyone in history it's obvious. Fury had competitive fights with Usyk and Fury is not quite what he was.
So yes, Fury still causes big trouble, but it also depends on his fatness and style.

The problem is that people think Usyk loses to these vintage HW's so now think Fury does. For instance they think Usyk loses to Ali, who Frazier beat up, or maybe even to Frazier, who Foreman beat up like he was a guy in the crowd, and 'Big' George is the size of Usyk.

 

No.
Such ideas appeared after the fight Fury Vs. Wilder 2.

 

I think Foreman had more muscle mass though

 

Top 25 at best.

 

The problem is, Ruiz and Dubois at their best (so far in Dubois' case, he's still improving) would go in at #2 on Fury's resume - they both have clearly better resumes than Wilder does.

You seem to be making a lot of excuses for Fury here - it's as if Usyk isn't actually way above his best weight and probably more declined through age, with less physical gifts to offset the decline with (alternative tactics through size, etc)?

But then, in the case of either man, if they thought there was a better weight for their frame and intended tactics - for a fight at heavyweight - then they'd get into that shape... It's not like Usyk can't come in lighter, and it's the same for Fury, they're choosing not to - I don't really think that's a great excuse, myself.

But what is Fury at his best, and has it actually existed more than one of two nights of his career?

And considering the answer to the above is, realistically, "no" (because it's probably only against Wlad that he was truly in his best shape/fitness/preparedness)...

Does that Fury really count as "the Fury" any more than Ruiz being miles better against Joshua (and Parker to some extent) than he has been for the majority of his career is "THE Andy Ruiz"?

I don't know whether "mostly down to" mental issues is necessarily fair - there's definitely some of that, but there's also (realistically) a bit of cowardice in there for good measure... The lack of rematch with Wlad and not making a fight with Joshua a priority kinda speak to that (and before you say "what about Wilder?" the man is and was a transparent fraud with a resume thinner than concentration camp toilet paper - Fury recognised that long before general opinion caught up).

I don't think so, personally - I think Usyk would always have been better in their primes, probably even more clearly so than now in their twilights.

Indeed.

And the reality is, he beat the most proven in the division quite comfortably... And then also quite comfortably beat the enigma who may or may not have been better again.

If he can do that when he's past his best, there's no reason to think he wouldn't have been even more impressive in his prime.

 

Not true, Ali was up on all 3 scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

 

I never viewed him as an all time H2H fighter.

He has never had the best tank, he doesn't have top level power and he is quite awkward. However he always had quick hands and quick reflexes for a man his size and that helped when he was fighting lower level opponents, it helped him scrape a win in an all time worst heavyweight championship fight against Wlad but other than that, he never fought Parker, AJ, Ruiz, who were the best opponents of that period. He eventually fought Usyk twice and lost twice.

End.

 

Well, plus Povetkin.

Then Whyte and Wilder who he did, alongside the likes of Joyce, Pulev, Chisora etc.

 

I didn't name everyone. We'd be here all day otherwise. Although he did fight Chisora..3x, although the two later fights were pointless.

 

Again theres absolutely no argument that usyk is the better fighter in a lb for lb sense. The problem we,ve got tho is the version of usyk that we need to judge him off in a head to head heavyweight sense is a 38 year old one fighting 30 lbs over his best weight. Who,s had close hard fights against a joshua that had already been bounced around from andy ruiz and a fury thats much depleted.

I cant tell you how big an achievement i think usyks success is. Thats a massive ask....and truely shows you how good he is tbh.

But the reality is we pretty much need to put this version of usyk up against a fury before he ballooned up to 24 stone....cocaine/alcohol and mental health problems where his legs are pretty much gone fighting 30 lbs above his own optimum weight. It was a close fight. Usyk won it. But its pretty much a head to head where one fighter gets the advantage of being at his absolute peak against another that doesnt have that advantage because he was 200 lbs at his peak.

That wouldnt have been enough to keep usyk in these fights otherwise he,d have stayed at 200 lbs as a heavyweight. Hes bulked a lot from his prime. An argument could probably be made in fairness....but i,d be taking a 245 lb much fresher fury to edge usyk at 200 lbs. If not tho it would have been close....hence in a head to head sense their about the same. But it is about the only thing they,d be equal at.

In terms of overall ability....career achievement....lb for lb sense usyk wins handily.

In a head to head tho fury has the massive advantage in the discussion for that reason....they probably should go down around the same only down to usyk being a naturally much smaller man. But people are high on usyks win so hes the greatest fighter that ever lived for now.

I think your on to something about cowardice regarding fighting joshua. People decided he,d beat joshua because he would have up to a certain point anyway. He,s swerved it because joshuas always a dangerous style for fury now his legs have slowed. Regarding the klitchko rematch tho i still dont think people quite realise how bad furys mental health is.

Although one thing i,ll add that a lot will disagree with is that fury is probably the naturally better guy. Hes more dedicated to boxing than people realise tbf.....but he spent years training from a guy that didnt have all that much boxing knowledge in the grand scheme of things and lived a life of ill dicipline outside of boxing. Usyk has more ability....but an argument could be made fury had the more natural ability. Usyks the product of having the tools but also having a very shrewd boxing team behind him that are scientific in their training etc. That only works with the tools usyk brings tho tbf.

 

I don't understand why you're wanting to put the best Fury against arguably the worst HW Usyk could possibly have been?

If he'd moved up in his prime, then maybe I'd understand why the H2H in their primes would be an interesting conversation.

But it's not like this one wasn't a level playing field... I just don't get why making a theoretical matchup where it's a deliberately uneven playing field is an interesting thought experiment?

It's not like Fury-Wlad where the winner was prime and the loser was washed...
Prime Wlad vs Prime Fury would almost certainly have been different - but that was an uneven playing field when they fought, Usyk bs Fury wasn't.

 

Thats kind of the whole point of the head to head fighter discussion. Usually it is a case of the best version of fury against the best version of say klitchko i,d have thought anyway.

In that discussion usyks at a major disadvantage because hes a natural cruiserweight who spent his best years down there. The best heavyweight version of usyk is arguably the one that just fought fury twice. Hes 38 years olds fighting 30 lbs above his optimum weight.

For that reason he probably should be rated about the same level as fury in a head to head fight rating bearing in mind fury,s best version was about 28 years old against klitchko at his optimum weight etc.

We cant really blow usyk up into a natural heavyweight who,s always fought there back to being 28 years old etc.

As i said usyk better fighter by far in a lb for lb sense. Better fighter. Better career. Better achivements. Just a lot better fighter overall. But in a heavyweight head to head fight....fury probably takes it bearing in mind usyks at a disadvantage in that kind of discussion. Where really your taking the best version against the best version. Usyks best version was at cruiserweight.

 

Fury at his very best is probably difficult fight for almost anyone.
But we have to go back to February 2020 or way back to 2015 or 2014 to find that Fury.


Fury of 2023-2024 struggles with 37 year old MMA Francis Ngannou, for ****s sakes. He's useless.
The sad part - which few people here want to hear - is that Usyk isn't much better.