Random Boxing Beliefs You've Made Your Mind Up On

It's quite funny to read this as 'soccer' and then realise you mean American football. Saying boxing is much tougher than 'soccer' is like saying it's tougher than snooker

 

Soccer not tough? Have you ever seen some of those grass stains?

Those guys are in top shape though, but so were we.

 

Floyd Mayweather is the most brilliantly consistent defensive great on film, yet likely isn't a top 15 p4p ATG, but may sit top of the tree at 130 lbs on a H2H basis.

Usyk is a great fighter but not an ATG HW Top 10, but more than lends credibility to my contention that the likes of Ali, Joe Louis and Holmes would not be too small to compete and IMO, absolutely reign in this era of poor HWs.

Kostya and Rigo are much better fighters than they get credit for - far better than their résumés.

The average fight fan has no idea of what they're watching, can't analyse the fighter, the stylistic nuances and possibly doesn't have the command of language to describe it with accuracy/communicate it effectively, even if they did! This is why debates often resort to lazy, popular repeated myths that inspection of video tape disproves rather quickly.

Similarly, in today's era of recent is better and bigger is better, the only thing the vast majority of today's average boxer has over fighters of yesteryear is a better ability to lift weights in the gym and access to steroids. Access to elite coaching, honing your craft in the ring by fighting every month/every other month, the tenacity and mentality that comes with growing up in extreme hardship - lots of these skill-inducing circumstances are lost to the average American/British fighter.

Joe Louis would destroy Bowe IMO. Too open, walks too straight on and the body shots would open him up.

Bowe might be a horrible match up for Usyk. Usyk has great footwork and great IQ. Bowe doesn't mind eating a punch to land a punch and Usyk doesn't generate Evan's power and I think he's relatively prone to body shots. Bowe is gonna play xylophone with his rib cage. The Louis that beat Schmelling in the rematch tears Usyk apart once adjusted to the speed for my money. Tyson beats him soundly too.

Usyk Vs the best Holyfield would be a very very interesting fight.

 

Holmes-Spinks II was absolutely a robbery.

 

Ray Leonard would've destroyed Aaron Pryor,
and would be a "pick em" fight against Ray
Robinson best night vs best night,
they are that close in abilities...

 

Douglas received some very generous officiating in the Tyson fight.

For someone who was supposedly all fine and dandy like everyone claims, Douglas cut it AWFULLY close with the count (many referees would've counted him out) when Tyson floored him with that uppercut, and was clearly unsteady on his feet upon rising.

The referee (perhaps subconsciously) clearly slowed the count (perhaps most obvious around the 6 second mark), and stopped counting at 9 as Douglas was in the process of rising but not actually on his own two feet yet.

 

Given men like Nat Peartree and Rob Whittaker are not considered champions because Figg is considered by historians to be the best during that era boxing has no problem with revisionist history.

Given boxing has no problem revising terms and status in the historical record to reflect who is best at a given time as opposed to who was called champion there should be no problem acknowledging a new old champion. So long as one can prove their dominance was consensus.

And if one or both of the above are true then I believe Robert Delaney is the heavyweight champion of England in 1864

Tom King retired in 1863, or April 64 if you push to his last attempt at fighting. Robert not only defeated both Allen brothers two months later but was widely reported as the best in England at that time and would be called a champion if not for his being black. To say that again in different words, I do not mean i say he would be champion but rather the press of his time in his location said it.

Joe Wormald wouldn't even claim champion status until 65 one month before Delaney's final fight, a rematch with Harry Allen.


Robert Delaney was unbeaten. He defeated the best men of his era. His resume is short but still has names who did more than Wormald would defeat, and his career ended because he was frozen out due to being too good to compete against. The press of his day blatantly speak to his race being why he was never considered for champion status after King.

So, imo, Delaney Jun 1864 - Jan 1865 is the HW champion of England.

 

The thing about fights fans may be like that,unless they slow down footages and actually paid attention to the techniques,they understand.

 

The 1970’s heavyweights were the best example of ‘styles make fights’ but the robbery of Ken Norton in the third Ali fight permanently skewed heavyweight history, leading the general public to believe that Ali had dominated the whole decade. He did not.

 

Those that have been here more than 10 years may recall that I spent some time analysing fight footage of Ali and RJJ, on the premise that they had no fundamentals. I concluded that they had a great deal of fundamentals, but stylistically, chose to opt for more unorthodox positions, punches, defensive manoeuvres to exploit the things that orthodox fighters weren't expecting.

You can be extremely unorthodox in application and still employ fundamentally sound techniques/body mechanics/ring positioning.

 

M-hm,from what I heard of,both used good lateral footwork and trapped opponents good.

 

Both also displayed ability to slip, inside and outside jabs, pull counter and pivot off central line effectively, raise forearms to negate, absorb/block punches, both threw quick hooks around the guard, Ali jabbed through guards often.

Of course both relied on their reflexes, but underpinning that reflex was hours and hours of meticulous training to understand the fundamentals/orthodox styles of boxing and then take advantage of these said fundamentals by doing what you're not supposed to do to catch what you're supposed to do fighters by surprise.

 

My hottest take is that Villasana has the perfect style and physical attributes to beat Pacquiao up at 126.

 

Both also knew how to abuse angles,double up on opponent's holes,and how to enter/exit the inside.
Those were advanced fundamentals.

 

Absolutely elite of the elite.

The irony is that in hindsight, we sit here and have to hear about how they did x mistake, y mistake, z mistake and today's Johnny Come Lately would destroy them for it. All the same time, ignoring dozens of world class fighters that got timed and made to look silly at times for it.

Now, I don't profess them to be perfect fighters but at their absolute best, out of this world talent that very few would be able to beat. Roy is IMO, arguably top 1 - 3 H2H from 160 - 175 lbs depending on the circumstances of the fight and how you view his skillset. Ali is my number 1 HW, very closely followed by Joe Louis.