Random Boxing Beliefs You've Made Your Mind Up On

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Russell, Dec 14, 2024.


  1. Philosopher

    Philosopher Active Member Full Member

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    I belive that late 60s Ali was the perfect heavyweight. I believe that the first Liston fight is overlooked as a proper test, and was closer than many believe based on revisionist reporting. I believe Liston in his prime was a h2h monster, and no talk of throwing fights, losing to lesser fighters etc can convince me different. I think peak Tyson and Holyfield are h2h nightmares for everyone and I'm sure Holyfield always beats Tyson. And nobody ain't tellin' me nuthin different....
     
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  2. Anomalocaris

    Anomalocaris Member banned Full Member

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    Just a quick hello everyone, I have been reading here for years and it's by far the best forum on the history of the sport that I have ever read.

    As for the topic, a few thoughts.

    The Fury of Wlad and Wilder 2 was head to head an absolute beast. It's such a shame his personal demons, Covid and lifestyle derailed his career.

    Hearns was virtually unbeatable at light-middle and at welter if you were not called Sugar Ray you were going to be defeated.

    Mike Tyson is hands down the most overrated fighter by casuals/fanboys in the history of the sport (although Marciano comes close). Many times I have read that not only was he the greatest heavyweight but the GOAT in history at ANY weight - period.

    The list of excuses for his defeats they state is longer than War and Peace.

    It does my head in.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2024
  3. META5

    META5 Active Member Full Member

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    It wasn't until I slowed down the tape that I clocked Ali throwing check hooks, parrying jabs and elbow blocking Liston's body shots. Slipping inside and outside the infamous Sonny jab, completely beating him in the battle of jabs and look at how good Sonny's head movement is. He slipped a lot of Ali's jabs and showed nowt wrong with his reflexes but Ali's speed and timing was insane. Sonny was overwhelmed when Ali opened up in combination and remarkably, Ali's pushing his head down and standing over him, being "the bigger man".

    The truest indication of how skilled Ali was is that after the initial herky jerky bouncing around the ring and exaggerated head movement he started the fight with, he settles down, takes ring centre and completely outboxes Liston using the jab, doubling it and pivoting around Liston - looking like the conventional boxer that many say that he isn't. Liston had success to the body but we know in hindsight that Ali took a body shot for fun (probably the best I've ever seen on film) - the fight was closer than some make it to be but make no bones about it, Ali had Liston's number and stylistically, size and speed wise, I cannot see a version of Liston that beats the Ali that materialised in 1966 - 1967.
     
  4. META5

    META5 Active Member Full Member

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    Welcome to the forum.

    I don't necessarily agree with the Fury take but only cos Klit was so old and Wilder was never great, but absolutely hits hard. I do think on his best day, the very best HWs expose Fury for being too heavy, having relatively poor stamina and relying on his size excessively. Joe Louis, Mike Tyson, Bowe and others for my money could KO him. I think a prime Wlad probably KOs him as well. But then, maybe it's just me.
     
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  5. Philosopher

    Philosopher Active Member Full Member

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    Nor can I man, he was perfect.
     
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  6. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

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    I completely agree with that. Pac seemed much less durable at the lower weights for whatever reason. Not a problem you want to have against someone who punches very hard and who you're never going to knock out...
     
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  7. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Do you know how easily one could get injured flopping to fake a foul that didn’t happen?

    Not to mention the possibility of a goalie getting a hangnail!
     
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  8. Anomalocaris

    Anomalocaris Member banned Full Member

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    Thanks for the welcome META5, for some reason atm I can't quote people on here directly.

    Phil.
     
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  9. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    A couple of mine:

    Pernell Whitaker is a nightmare matchup for most anyone at 135 pounds, and most of all for Roberto Duran. Sweet Pea is someone on or near the same tier as Duran as a fighter but as a slick and precise southpaw he has the style to befuddle Roberto for what would end up being an easy 15-round decision (easy as in wide on the scorecards, like 10-5 ish).

    Also, the version of Mike Tyson that so many revere basically doesn’t exist. I always hear about what he was like in the Rooney days as a guy with constant head movement who used the jab and while we see him do that for a few rounds here and there, he never sustained it over the course of a fight. Usually he moves his head early and in some fights even uses the jab early, but he never was able to effectively control distance with the jab over sustained rounds. After 5-7 rounds, he’s basically two-punches-then-fall-inside … and his head movement becomes more reactive than something he does to avoid anyone getting a bead on him.

    He’s not a great infighter nor a great outfighter. He is effective at middle range, but doesn’t have the skill or discipline to keep fights at that distance to maximize his effectiveness.
     
  10. Anomalocaris

    Anomalocaris Member banned Full Member

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    You are spot on, I always thought even prime Duran would have a very tough time indeed with Sweetpea
     
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  11. META5

    META5 Active Member Full Member

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    Very close to perfect but he didn't go to the body much. As he was usually the taller man and preferred to use his height and reach to advantage, getting low to body punch puts him in the danger zone. He did have a very good jab to the body in the 60s tho - he used to blade, get low and jab with his chin tucked and pivot and roll away. He did this right up until he realised his legs couldn't get him in and out with the same ease anymore.

    I also think one of Ali's biggest flaws was fighting up and down the perceived threat of his opponent. He almost always spent the first half of round 1 dancing, getting his rhythm, downloading data about his opponent's reactions to his feints, their rhythm and measuring distance. Ali's distance negotiation was phenomenal at his best but it relied heavily on his leg movement and reflex. This is the only way that I can make sense of disinterested performances against lesser fighters followed up by all time performances against monsters.
     
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  12. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    As to the lower part of your post, I think you’re right — I think Ali made calculated decisions on how high he could rev the RPMs on his body and keep the race car running, so to speak, and also on his ability to summon the fire mentally.

    In short, he was remarkable at rising to the occasion and reaching peaks while knowing he couldn’t perform at that level every time. He’d have burned himself out (or believed he would have) if he trained physically and went to that place he had to go to mentally to beat George Foreman, so … he didn’t do that every time.

    As for the part about using the early part of the opening round to gauge the opponent (and this may be an Angelo Dundee thing given he’s a common denominator), check out Ray Leonard in basically every fight. He NEVER seems to throw a single punch (or at least a meaningful one) in the first 60-90 seconds. He measures distance and his opponent’s reflex, speed and power while waiting … which I think also caused great tension in that opponent who has to be waiting to see if this Leonard is really all that — how fast is he, really, and how hard does he hit? The waiting game I think weighed heavily for that opening as they probed and pushed to see what they were up against. I don’t think it decided any fights (maybe Andy Price got lulled?) but it’s interesting to see that Ray basically does it in every single fight.
     
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  13. FThabxinfan

    FThabxinfan Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I'm a Duràn fan,but you got a point, Duràn did struggle with slicksters that can't be tricked into his 1-1-1-2 st times,but I thought he'll still win a close decision,when he fought Leonard for the second time he did adapt well and show a good strategy for slicksters,until he gassed out and unfortunately quit.
     
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