Rocky Marciano Versus Oleksandr Usyk

In higher weightclasses ? It hasn't been done many times before that's false. Consistently beating fighters with 30-40 pound weight advantage ? Maybe Holyfield but that's about it.

Pernell Whitaker didn't knock alot of fighters out he still made opponents look pedestrian you don't have to knockout opponents to make them look pedestrian.

And the speed/movement of Usyk would make Marciano look pedestrian in comparison.

 

Louis….Usyk….resume…right…

Ofcourse knocking out people is better then a points win. It’s the ultimate statement.

 

Casual take

 

Nah just not a snob.

 

It shows

 

True, Rocky would’ve been considered small.

Although, his chances vs the 70s intermediary sized HWs would’ve been a lot better than against the current Super Sized HWs and Usyk does fit the former category.

Frazier was that bit heavier, probably 203-205 lbs being his best prime weights vs Rocky’s 185 lb or so - though Rock did see a career high of 189 lbs.

Frazier could and did give hell to HWs like Ali and other HWs in the same size realm as Muhammad but several of those 70s sized HWs would perhaps to do better than Joe if they were pitted against today’s SHW’s due to their closer proximity in size.

Usyk himself is considered small as compared to the current SHWs but that size discrepancy alone has prevented him from thriving.

If they ever introduced another tween division as they did with CW, covering off another 25 lbs (say, a max. limit beyond CW = 225 lbs) before deeming a fighter to be a HW, then Usyk himself would be technically culled out.

To be clear, I’m only accenting on the debate re size discrepancy, not the specific styles, strengths and weaknesses that obviously pertain to this match up also.

 

Some fair points.

There’s a lot here that isn’t black and white.

However, the crux of our opposing positions is the question as to whether Usyk has found it necessarily more difficult against his against his larger sized HW comp. primarily due to their size advantage.

I would say that, in fast tracking himself to the perceived cream of the HW division, Usyk has been notably dominant within that very frame, though he doesn’t have great coverage of the
next tier SHWs of the division otherwise - fights that people now want to see if Usyk chooses to continue his career.

Usyk is def. performing well for his age but he certainly isn’t the fighter he used to be, so he has encountered greater later career difficulties due to that stand alone fact, lending to the perception/reality of relatively “tougher”’fights.

Usyk did say that Fury 1 was his toughest fight - not that Fury was necessarily his toughest or best opponent.

Interestingly, some recent IVs seem to reflect Usyk changing his tune on that testimony - obviously people can take such quotes as they like - they only have so much value.

Though they might purport to, people don’t actually ever take such quotes on face value - they simply agree or disagree with them based on (most importantly) what they believe they saw with their own eyes.

If Usyk had said the Fury fight was one of his easiest ever (as Fury himself tried to ludicrously claim from his POV of the first Usyk fight) I doubt anyone would say, “Well, if Olek said so, I’m going to take him at his word - good enough for me.”

I mentioned pros and cons - to address one particular pro - while Usyk has displayed his own special brand of stamina, he has enjoyed his larger opposition tiring out on him for compound interest - an advantage that he didn’t enjoy so much if at all at CW.

Also, against his youngest and freshest opponent at HW, Dubois, who was that much bigger than his CW comp., Usyk dominated and secured a stoppage and he also basically had Fury out in their first fight - meanwhile there were tough fights against his top shelf CW comp. in which Usyk had to battle it out through the whole 12 rounds.

Now, for another example of age related deteriorations, while AJ might’ve fought a better fight in the rematch I also think it was clear that Usyk, from age 34 to 35, had lost a bit in his own right from fight 1 to 2 against AJ.

Usyk still won clearly but the rematch was closer than the first fight.

 

Cheers mate.

 

Don’t feel bad Loud.

I think it was a Mexican Bantam that Tex Cobb said had knocked him out at one time - of course his mates were swinging the bantam around by his legs at the time and poor Tex found himself standing directly in the circular flight path of the lil fella.

Any chance the gorgeous paramedic at least gave you a happy ending to ease the pain?

Apologies for being lewd, Loud. I can’t help myself.

 

I agree there are many nuances, and not everything is black and white. I’d like to explore a few of your points further.

I think whether Usyk finds it more difficult against larger HWs depends on how we define "difficulty." Physically, fighting significantly larger opponents like Joshua and Fury presents challenges, such as dealing with their power, reach, and weight advantages (Joshua outweighed him by over 20 lbs, Fury by 40 lbs). However, Usyk’s skill, stamina, and adaptability allow him to overcome these challenges. His ability to tire out bigger opponents, as you mentioned, is an asset at HW, but he also utilized this effectively at CW, as seen in fights against Hunter, Briedis, and Głowacki where he won most of the later rounds against all of them showing that its not just an advantage against bigger fighters but also similar sized ones as well.

That said, the effort required at HW is inherently greater. Facing larger opponents forces Usyk to expend more energy and fight with precision to achieve the same dominance he enjoyed at CW. His fights with Joshua and Fury show this; despite winning, these fights were physically demanding. The toll is evident in his face after each fight he looks pretty beat up after all 3 fights despite them being "easy" fights.

Regarding age-related decline, I agree that Usyk isn’t the same fighter he was in his CW prime. The closer rematch with Joshua reflects both Usyk’s slight decline and Joshua’s adjustments. It’s also worth noting that the war in Ukraine disrupted his preparation, which may have contributed to his performance and decline. Even so, his ability to compete at the highest level despite these challenges is a testament to his skill and resilience.

As for Dubois, while Usyk secured a stoppage, Dubois’ inexperience at the elite level, coupled with Usyk’s superior ring IQ, played a key role. Dubois may have been bigger and younger, but he lacked the tactical depth to trouble Usyk in the way seasoned fighters like Joshua or Briedis did.

In summary, while size and age pose challenges, Usyk’s success in navigating the HW division highlights his greatness. The perception that his HW fights are “closer” doesn’t diminish his achievements but instead underscores the extraordinary effort required to compete in this era of giants. This adaptability also suggests he could thrive in any era, whether facing similarly sized or larger opponents.

 

Sure, Usyk’s insane stamina has absolute value and took him far at CW but relatively, the advantage of same has been more pronounced against the more easily fatigued SHWs - which has helped to offset Usyk’s own depreciations in stamina as the years have gone by.

Yes, there is that feature where Usyk has had to perhaps move more against his bigger opposition.

Perhaps analogous, Ray Robinson had to move like there was no tomorrow vs the much less necessarily active but bigger LH Maxim.

The required discrepancy in work rate is a good part of the reason that the extraordinary heat ultimately took it’s toll on Ray far more than it did Maxim.

Even when a smaller fighter wins clearly, behind the scenes, it still an all or nothing prospect - meanwhile, their larger opponents can afford random periods of respite.

If the smaller guy falls off his high end mobility and output against a much larger opponent - it could spell sudden disaster.

With less mobility in recent years, Usyk has taken that bit more punishment - but then, enter his outstanding durability and IQ, adjusting himself in sort of similar fashion to second career Ali.

Every link in Usyk’s chain is strong - and without any single, specific attribute that he does have in his possession, it could’ve all fallen apart at various points.

I’m a fan of the man and not to diminish his elite attributes otherwise but I do think his successes, at least in part, have highlighted some more generic pros when a very good “small man” tangles with good big man.

Suffice to say, I think he has tapped very well into and taken full advantage of the cons that do come with an opponents greater size.

If he was to fight an comparably sized HW with better skills (than the SHWs) approximating more closely to his own, it would require a somewhat different application and pacing of himself -

He has exhibited excellent adaptability but I think it would still be a bit of a shock to the system since, for some time now, he’s been so well tuned into a style suited to bringing down the giants

 

Usyk would crush him.

 

I agree that Usyk’s ability to exploit the cons of larger opponents has been critical to his success and highlights his exceptional adaptability. However, this skill isn’t exclusive to fighting larger opponents—it’s a general tool we’ve seen him use throughout his career. His cruiserweight run demonstrated this versatility against fighters closer to his size, and I see no reason why it wouldn’t apply against smaller opponents as well. Usyk’s adaptability and ring IQ arguably make him one of the most versatile heavyweights in history.

Regarding his durability, I agree it has been tested more at heavyweight, but that’s largely because he’s facing stronger, harder-hitting opponents rather than a decline in his mobility. In fact, his defensive skills have arguably improved at heavyweight. His head movement, in particular, has become a key part of his defense, reducing his reliance on the high guard he often used at cruiserweight. This evolution in his style has allowed him to minimize damage and avoid punches that could be fight-ending at heavyweight.

Your point about how Usyk might fare against a comparably sized and skilled opponent is interesting. While such a fight would demand different pacing and adjustments, his cruiserweight career already provides evidence of his ability to handle similarly sized, highly skilled opponents. Fighters like Briedis and Hunter posed challenges, but Usyk overcame them, showing his capacity to deal with both super heavyweights and fighters closer to his size.

At heavyweight, Usyk has adapted to different styles and physical challenges, whether it’s the raw power of Joshua, the unorthodox approach of Fury, or the youth and size of Dubois. This adaptability suggests he could handle the challenges posed by a similarly skilled opponent of his size, even if the dynamics of such a fight differ from his battles with SHWs.

In summary, Usyk’s success is a combination of his extraordinary skill set and his ability to exploit the weaknesses of his opponents, regardless of their size. While his style at heavyweight has been tailored to defeat larger opponents, his track record against a variety of styles and sizes shows that he’d excel against fighters more closely matched to him in size as well.

 

When Uysk exploits disadvantages (cons) directly related to an opponents larger size, it does in fact make the applications/effects more exclusive and/or much more pronounced against larger opponents because of their very size. It’s automatically a contradiction in terms to say otherwise.

Comparably sized or smaller opposition generally bring better skills, agility and stamina to the table. They also present as physically smaller targets. As I said, in net terms, generally tougher fights at CW for a younger Usyk.

Again, I think his mobility has declined over the years, with added weight perhaps also a contributing factor.

For all his skill, Usyk has taken some very hard shots - shots that would, in their own right, drop lesser chinned fighters or at least turn the fight against them thereafter.

His chin has been a very significant asset at HW - and AJ also nailed him several times with full power shots.

Stronger, harder hitting opponents don’t necessarily nail you due to the aforementioned attributes alone.

Usyk has slowed down, thus he has been caught more but on the flip side, he is better planted and can punch with more authority.

At CW, Usyk also wasn’t untouchable - something to bear in mind when trying to suggest that Ali himself has been unrealistically assessed.

Highlighting specific flaws is one thing, but such flaws shouldn’t be unduly overweighted nor at the expense of a fighter’s effectiveness in whole terms.

No fighter can be all things at once but the truly great fighters often have more than enough compensatory attributes otherwise to cover depts that they may not be necessarily strong in.

 

Three extremely strong sentences right there. It ends that whole little flaws and H2H debate in an absolute minimum of words. So much for walls of text!!!!!!!

I'd kill to know what magazine or post you copied all that from!!!!!!!