Holyfield argues he should be considered the GOAT over Ali

These drugs only weakened Ali.
Left him without strength and in a weakened state the opposite of the substances Holyfield used

 

Yes it does, unless you somehow think that a hw retains exactly the same abilities & is in no way impacted by what he weighs for a fight.

Ali used drugs instead of relying solely on training to reduce much closer to what had previously been his ideal fighting weight. Unless you somehow think that Ali's speed & efficiency was never impacted by excess weight, then that is indeed cheating w/ intent to improve his performance.

 

just another example of this Achievement Based Greatness nonsense...

slot another in, bump, take another off.

Lesser fighters continually get all hyped & blown out of proportion as soon as someone places them into one of these lists.

NO!

Greatness is always and only H2H, based on Career, Opponents, Longevity, Skill and Performances - win or lose, against fellow Top Opponents.

now Holy & Ali isn't the best poor example of this, but throwing in a TF, or other definite poorer fighters, into such lists is exactly the insulting madness. They are a futile waste of time, misrepresentations and thoroughly inaccurate exercises & lists.

These lists to me have always misrepresented - True Skill & Quality of Boxing History and dozens & dozens of GREAT FIGHTERS!!!

 

Ali was a class act. I met him in 1997 when he was already way sick. He still took my Sports illustrated and signed it, amd then made a fist and we both had a moment where it looked like we were posing with our fists closed. This was, of course, before I transitioned socially but he would not have cared.

The nicest boxers i met were Macho Camacho, Sugar Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran. Who, of course, did a round robin of fights too and could also be considered three kings because of their three way rivalry. They absolutely went beyond just signing autographs, with Camacho organizing a party for me and my family, Leonard buying me and my father breakfast at the hotel and Duran speaking to us about an hour.

Antonio Margarito was so nice, he stopped the press conference he was participating at when he heard id lost my diabetic kit and helped me look for it.

And Yori Boy Camoas....while we awaited for his gym to open, we spoke there for an hour or two about everything.

Wilfredo Gomez was nice too. Unbeknown to me he was actually with Camacho when we went to meet Camacho, and he was very nice. Jorge Paez was super nice,, he even put his clown's nose on mine for a photo lol

Laura Serrano was very sweet and so were Christy Martin and her piece of **** husband Jim who was not a piece of **** to me and my friends.

I almost got run over by a steel door trying to reach Kostya Tszyu's limo. He touched my shoulder while signing my boxing glove, asked if I was ok and said he wasnt worth that risk.

I forgot to say, James Toney did also sign an autograph for me but seemed a bit arrogant, i think he only signed it because he had a woman on his arms and wanted to impress her lol...but at least he, De la Hoya, Chavez and Whitaker signed my autograph despite being arrogant. i give them credit for that.

Mike Tyson and Floyd Mayweather i met at Madison Square Garden gym in Phoenix. Tyson late in his career and Mayweather early in his, They were both fast encounters because they had to do other stuff but they were nice. Michael Carbajasl is always nice when you meet him.

But the nicest, by far, were Camacho, Leonard and Duran.

 

This is true.

Its like holding the Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick fights against Muhammad Ali, the Alfredo Layne one against WIlfredo Gomez, the Davey Moore, Matthew Hilton, Carlos Herera, Scott Papsadora, etc, ones against Wilfred Benitez, the Danny Sanchez one against Antonio Cervantes, etc, etc.

 

I'm glad Ray was nice as he's one of my five favorites. Still disappointed in Oscar

 

Ali and Louis just dropped off the top of my list

 

Good for you...

lists are always subjective to a degree, consensus over the years and particularity during a fighters own time are also paramount, Era's, Careers, Comp, Skill, Top Level and performance.

lists are HARD, not always the complete picture and also always inaccurate in inclusions & conclusions. Fun for some, waste of times for others, but honest & considerate lists are good for comparisons & panoramic glimpses of Boxing History.

Go nuts.

 

Liston, Frazier, Foreman, probably even Bonavena and Chuvalo would beat Evan Fields, whereas Ali beats Bowe, Tyson, and Lewis, then there is a big step down to Douglas and Moorer

 

Holyroids is in the Top10 no doubt. But he is way below Ali.

All the stuff he took must have gone to his brains.

 

The thing is that winning back the championship is really hard, winning it back 3 times should be 4 times (valuev). He needed to bounce back and get to the top again and again which takes crazy heart. It dose t make him the goat but it’s not something you should downplay, it takes heart, grit and improving to come back and win back an title espically in an stacked division.

 

I don't disagree with this per se, but I'll add that it's even harder to retain the title, with regular successful defences without defeat, for a long period of time.

All other factors being equal, I'd take a single, unbeaten, 20+ defence reign, over 3 or 4 much shorter reigns, each of which was ended by defeat (I appreciate that comparison is more relevant to Louis keeping Evander off top spot, than Ali).

 

ABSOLUTELY. Losing the title to a relatively mediocre fighter and winning it back again has no significance in my book. Patterson regaining the title from Johansson, Ali from Spinks, Jimmy Carter from Lauro Salas and Paddy DeMarco are examples that come to mind. Losing the title to them in the first place is more of a demerit than anything.