Oleksandr Usyk vs Larry Holmes primes

What fights did Holmes show "a tendency to slow down and take several rounds off"? Also what rounds can i watch him take off so i can zero in on what you are trying to claim. On top of this did Holmes win most of these rounds, lose most, lose all?

Usyk doesn't have the power to hit Holmes with "big shots". He'd be hit by Usyk no doubt, but not IMO as many times as Usyk would be hit by Holmes. Usyk's stamina won't stand out near as much fighting leaner lighter ATG's like Ali and Holmes. They'll have more in the tank than an aging Fury who it must be said has had a pretty hard life even if he is still performing reasonably well.

I never said anything about Holmes having "all the control is this fight". If Holmes for some reason wasn't having the success he was after boxing rest assured he'd ramp it up and ask different questions of Usyk. I seem to remember a couple of rounds in the first fight where an under pressure Usyk went quiet after a heavy barrage from Fury. Fury's hardly a huge puncher and if he can sit Usyk back for a bit i have no doubt Holmes could. Holmes also has the luxury of having an excellent chin and recuperation so he doesn't have to scale back and be careful like Fury did when Usyk came back nicely at him.

Holmes UD12

Next.

 

You're right as far as the titles are concerned.

But it should be noted how prone to shifts and changes the division was in Witherspoon's era. Holmes was the dominant ATG champion in the early 80's, Spinks moves up and beats him as he starts to slip, doesn't fight his mandatories so the belts scatter and change hands like hot potato (putting and throwing out fighters from the top 3 every few months), Tyson shows up and cleans house, Holyfield moves up in 1988, Douglas beat Tyson all of a sudden, then the likes of Bowe and Ruddock show up.

I seriously doubt AJ would have consistently been a top 3 fighter under such circumstances.

 

close fight.

I guess the question is: who can hurt the other guy more? I think Holmes will struggle more to pick up Usyk's backhand than the other way around.

I also think Usyk will be able to slow down Holmes a bit more through his consistent body punching.

However, this isn't an easy fight. Holmes's jab is faster and harder than any jab Usyk has ever faced and despite Usyk being a southpaw, no one can completely nulify Holmes's jab.

Holmes also has the stamins to keep up with Usyk and Holmes at his peak is arguably slightly quicker. I mean we are comparing 29-30 year old peak heavyweight Holmes to 34 year old heavyweight Usyk. Holmes might just be a shade faster here.

Holmes's stamina, jab and speed will give Usyk a hard fight. But on the other hand, Usyk's angles, left hand, combinations and body punching will give Holmes a hard time too.

Ultimately i favour the guy who i think can hurt the other guy more - i think Usyk's backhand does more damage because Holmes will struggle to pick it up more. And if Usyk unleashes the lead hook (which he rarely does to be honest), he can cause a lot of issues.

Usyk close UD.

 

Holmes absolutely had moments where he slowed down in fights, just look at the Cooney fight, where he took a breather in the middle rounds after a fast start, or the Witherspoon fight, where he visibly faded late, or the second Spinks fight, where he started to slow down in the middle rounds after winning the early rounds, etc. Holmes usually either clearly lost in those rounds or kept it competitive but tended to make up for it in the later rounds once he rested up and his opponents gassed themselves, as he did against Cooney, but if they didn't, it would cost him, as it did against Spinks.

Snipes wasn’t known as one of the hardest punchers in the division, yet he still managed to hurt Holmes with a well-timed shot. If someone like Snipes could trouble him, then it’s entirely reasonable to think Usyk, who has solid power and excellent accuracy, could do the same. And again, Usyk’s defense isn’t worse than Holmes (I'd argue its better tbh) and he’s never gotten knocked down like Holmes has, despite fighting some hard punchers.

His stamina was just as good against leaner cruiserweights as it was at heavyweight, and as mentioned, Holmes didn't have the best stamina, but he was good at managing it. It’s not like Usyk will just let Holmes do what he wants. He will constantly pressure him and make him uncomfortable. Whether Holmes can overcome it, I don’t know, Holmes was a great fighter, but he was far from perfect and had plenty of close calls in his reign against fighters way worse than Usyk, in terms of almost getting knocked out and having very close fights that he arguably lost so based on that id have to favor Usyk in a competitive fight who has shown much more consistency
Usyk UD

 

Well I do like Witherspoon!

 

Snipes hurt guys like Witherspoon and Page, as well as dropping Berbick multiple times in their fight- Who is well known for being pretty durable. Chisora hurt Usyk, and he sure as hell isn't that heavy of a puncher.

Saying "he's never gotten knocked down like Holmes has, despite fighting some hard punchers." is a false equivalency, since most heavy punchers that Holmes faced were without a doubt STRONGER than those that Usyk has faced. Larry getting dropped was also an issue with the younger, less experienced version of him. Holmes didn't get knocked down again past '81, apart from the match with Tyson- And we know that he faced punchers past Weaver and Snipes that had much heavier hands than they did.

 

I don't recall Chisora ever hurting Usyk tbh

I'd have to disagree. Usyk is fighting SHWs who outweigh him by a significant margin, while Holmes was mostly fighting guys his own size or only slightly bigger. It’s hard to argue that the heavy punchers Holmes faced were 'stronger' when Usyk is taking shots from much larger fighters with more mass behind their punches. Size and weight often translate to greater power, so I don’t see how the guys Holmes faced were hitting harder overall.

 

Suppose we'll have to disagree there.

We can easily compare heavy punchers at heavyweight to heavy punchers at heavyweight decades ago through statements from the fighters themselves. Wladimir Klitschko has said that Corrie Sanders is the strongest puncher that he's faced, which puts him over AJ- And from there, we can a trip down.

Bobby Czyz has said that the strongest puncher he's faced is Ray Mercer when in sparring, which puts him over Corrie Sanders, who Czyz has also faced. And we could stop there already, as Larry beat Ray without getting dropped while in the second stage of his career, but we can go even farther than that. I'll start to simplify the explanations to take less time.

Holyfield has said that Tyson was the hardest puncher he faced, therefore > Mercer
Ruddock has said that Smith was the hardest puncher he faced, therefore > Tyson

That's enough to put James Smith, who faced Holmes, over AJ punching wise.

 

Norton is considered a good H2H fighter for giving two of the top 5 Heavyweights of all time razor thin close fights its quite simple really.

Fury is not a big puncher and has often struggled against fighters of similar dimensions to Norton aka Pakjic, Cunningham, McDermott, Usyk, all 6'3 the same height as Norton who all had shorter reach than Norton aswell. And they all had a great deal of success landing on Fury and hurting him.

My question is why is Fury considered such a good H2H fighter ? He's only beaten 3 ranked fighters the same as Norton and he's looked lackluster and beatable vs alot of lesser opponents not to mention being on the floor almost 10 times.

Norton probably doesn't fare well against big punching KO artists but he would certainly match up well vs an outboxer like Fury who has mediocre power.

As for regarding who looked better in their respected fights ? Isn't Norton vs Holmes considered one of the greatest Heavyweight fights of all time ? So yeah I would consider Norton looking better vs a prime Holmes than Fury did vs Usyk.

 

I definitely don't recall Snipes hurting Page and he dropped Berbick once not multiple times. I'm not sure if he hurt Witherspoon either to be honest.

 

You obviously do not realize the core of Holmes gameplan against Cooney was to drag him into the late rounds (deep water) and drown him. He did exactly this. He got on the front foot early then eased off the pedal a bit not because he was tired, but because Cooney was still fresh and very dangerous. Cooney had one chance, a KO, and in reality that KO was more likely to come early. You should be applauding Holmes strategic sense not trying to claim his sensible caution is some sort of gap Usyk will drive through.

As for Witherspoon, Timmy caught him and hurt him in round 9 but Holmes came back hard near the end of the round to have Witherspoon in trouble of his own. Holmes had a poor third quarter but actually came back nicely in the last quarter to win the fight. That's not fading late. Any sort of fairness also recognizes the fact that this is the fight that made many believe Holmes was in decline.

It's incredibly disingenuous not to mention blatantly biased to try and use the second Spinks fight against Holmes. The guy was over the freaking hill and running on fumes. Spinks entire gameplan was to survive the early rounds as he knew Holmes would be far more dangerous this time around. Spinks gave away so many of the early rounds the vast majority do not believe Spinks ever caught up! Of course Spinks was going to finish stronger, he did nothing in the opening rounds but conserve energy and Holmes career was running on fumes. Putting so much emphasis on Holmes tiring late against Spinks tells me exactly where you are at.

Evangelista said Snipes was the hardest puncher he ever faced. Someone else he fought raved about his power too, i'm trying to find the article. Those in the know knew Snipes packed some solid heat in that right hand. He dropped Berbick with it and hurt him again later on. Simply put Usyk doesn't punch very hard. He wasn't a puncher at 200 and certainly isn't at heavyweight.

He's good defensively and takes a good punch. Fury did have him going for a while tho and he's sure not on Holmes level as a fighter. The most likely outcome is a decision fight, won by Holmes for mine.

There's a bit of a paradox there. He was carrying about 208 at cruiserweight. He now carries around 15 extra pounds. That's gonna take more effort to carry around but it's not overly evident because he's fighting big men with less stamina than the lighter men he was fighting at cruiserweight. His stamina (while carrying 220) will look a little less shiny against guys of similar weight or a touch less that aren't lugging 250 plus pounds around.

To say Holmes didn't have the best stamina shows me you don't really know what you are talking about. The stamina of Holmes was recognized year after year in his prime by notable boxing authorities and he was often labelled a long range specialist. I should not be surprised however, as you are, absurdly, throwing weight into the over the hill version of Holmes that fought Spinks, not to mention the guy who was starting to decline when he fought Witherspoon.

Neither will let the other do what they want for too long. That's just basic common sense. The thing is Holmes prevailed in those fights where he had troubles and drama's and those "almosts" show him to be a guy who knows how to get it done under pressure. The almost getting knocked out is not on the table vs Usyk so that's one less factor. He's not going to throw a nuclear like punch to drop him like Shavers and nor is he going to find the complacency there to shock him like Snipes. Usyk doesn't hit near as hard as guys like shavers and Weaver, and indeed Witherspoon and while i'm on a winner i'll throw Snipes right hand from left shield in there as well.

 

I misremembered the Snipes - Berbick match, it was just one knockdown (Renaldo still beat the snot out of Trevor regardless). But I know for a fact that he hurt both Witherspoon and Page, I put footage of him hurting each of em into a video of Snipes I made months ago (which is now private, as a lot of that old stuff I made blows).

 

Ok I'll have to check those two fights again. I could be wrong but I've watched the Page fight a few times. Will check them out at some point.

 

I should probably rewatch em, too, since there seems to be higher quality uploads of them up on YouTube now.

This was the video I originally ripped footage from some 5 months back- Just look at that grain. Yeesh.

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Don't see Don King having his guy lose on the scorecards to a rival promotional outfit. Usyk would need to win 9 rounds convincingly to get his arm raised and I sure do not see that happening. Anything remotely close to a contested bout & Larry wins. Controversial? perhaps.