If Crawford beats Canelo he is the P4P Goat

Joeywill · Jan 30, 2025

Barrf said: ↑

Let me know when he walks into the ring 40lbs lighter than an opponent and ragdolls him around, or when he walks into the ring 50lbs lighter than an opponent and defeats him decisively.

It's impossible to see anyone other than Usyk as the P4P king. I know, it's a bit unfair for a unified HW champ to be the P4P king, but this is the world we have.
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Daniel Dubious beat Jarell Miller by ko who outweighed him by nearly 100 pounds so this is terrible logic.

Fury nearly lost to a MMA fighter making his pro debut

Usyk fights against heavyweights with limited skillsets and weak gas tanks

Usyk dominated in 2 of the least skilled divisions in boxing no matter what anyone says

Joeywill · Jan 30, 2025

JusABoxinFan said: ↑

I don't knock anyone for saying Usyk is p4p #1...but have to point out that even he admitted that Crawford's skill and accomplishment puts him above the rest. And this is without a Canelo win. It came out Usyk's mouth.

But...to address your comment......

First.... Why is Gamboa not one of his elite wins. Gamboa was undefeated and top 5 p4p on fight night vs Crawford. Ricky Burns is also more accomplished Gassiev, Huck, Briedis, & Dubois. Trying to make it seem like those were far superior wins, based on what? The Gassiev win is on par with Crawford's win over Amir Khan and Kell Brook. Accomplished fighters who weren't at their peak and did nothing after fighting Crawford. Huck was coming off of a loss if I remember correctly. And I believe he hasn't won anything significant since as well. Dubois & Briedis won world titles after their loss to Usyk, but so did Ricky Burns and Ray Beltran after their loss to Crawford.

Second....p4p isn't about size....it's about skill set regardless of size. But even if it was. Crawford has always been called the smaller fighter. The names you posted above were some of the main guys who promoted being bigger fighters than him. Spence, Madrimov & Porter all competed above 160lbs during their boxing careers in amateur and/or professional. Crawford wasn't even credited as a "legit welterweight" when he moved up from 140lbs. How was he a bigger than those guys. Diaz, Horn, Benavidez, & Brook were all also naturally bigger than Crawford. Crawford has had the reach on all or most of his opponents, but saying he was bigger. If that was true then you have to admit the excuse of him having to "prove he can compete" at 147lbs and 154lbs is some B.S. because that's what the PBC fighters used against him getting a title opportunity immediately vs Thurman, Danny, Porter, Manny, & Spence. Hell, they addressed Crawford's size being a factor that would keep him from being elite at 154lbs vs Madrimov....... Now the notion is he is "bigger" than all his opponents....lol. Come on man, the excuses have to be consistent.

Seriously, it seems people go out their way to create any and every pathway to try and deny Crawford the flowers he deserves for simply being a competitor and trying to be great in the sport that we all claim to love.
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Yes this! It stopped on here for about a week after Crawford beat Spence but then it went back to downplaying Crawfords resume once again

The knew narrative was "Spence was shot after the car accident"

Joeywill · Jan 30, 2025

JunlongXiFan said: ↑

Also Henry Armstrong drew in what most consider a robbery for the undisputed middleweight championship. That’s undisputed feather, light, welter, middle. OP is very ignorant
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Henry Armstrong is one of the greatest of all time

If Crawford would beat Canelo he'd be ahead of Armstrong for me

More difficult to do it in this era I don't care what anybody says

Joeywill · Jan 30, 2025

Dynamicpuncher said: ↑

Well Toney is considered a great though that's not even debatable his career is miles ahead of anyone that Crawford has beaten. Toney's condition though was his own fault that's the difference there's no excuse for having weight problems that's down to the person themselves. Toney had no issues make weight prior to his fight with RJJ in a stand out win vs Charles Williams, so if Toney couldn't sort out his weight issues for the biggest fight of his life at that time that's on him.
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I agree that Toney is better than anyone who Crawford beat career wise but it's not a career comparison

It's about who you beat when you beat them

Bernard Hopkins had a better career than James Toney but Roy Jones win over James Toney is better than Roy Jones win over Bernard Hopkins

Joeywill · Jan 30, 2025

Dynamicpuncher said: ↑

Porter for me is a step below the very best Welterweights of his era i can't class him as very good for me he's just good.

I wouldn't say it's a huge achievement Porter had been decked a few times in his career and was semi retired with one foot out the door I would say it's a good win for Crawford nothing more nothing less.
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We're getting into semantics about good or very good but knocking out Porter is huge

I'll ask you this

Who would be the last welterweight prior to Crawford that would knock out that version of Porter?

Pacquiao? Trinidad?

There wouldn't be many

Joeywill · Jan 30, 2025

IsaL said: ↑

Unfortunately for Pacquiao's legacy he has many losses even before he got old.

At 135 he avoided the best opponents and instead beat a paper champ who was gifted a title. Not good.

At 140 sure he beat reining champ who had gotten his chin annhaliate by Feather fisted Mayweather. Small asterisk.

147 was decent, but it comes with several asterisks.

154 was just a complete sham. Borderline criminal. Huge asterisk.
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Ya the whole 8 division champ thing is overblown

Obviously Pacquiao covered a lot of weight but there was some manipulation in the process

Dynamicpuncher · Jan 30, 2025

Joeywill said: ↑

We're getting into semantics about good or very good but knocking out Porter is huge

I'll ask you this

Who would be the last welterweight prior to Crawford that would knock out that version of Porter?

Pacquiao? Trinidad?

There wouldn't be many
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Mosley, ODLH, Cotto, Quartey, Lopez, Tito, Pacquiao.

Forrest maybe aswell although he had trouble vs Mayorga so he may struggle vs Porters wild aggression aswell.

Joeywill · Jan 31, 2025

Dynamicpuncher said: ↑

Mosley, ODLH, Cotto, Quartey, Lopez, Tito, Pacquiao.

Forrest maybe aswell although he had trouble vs Mayorga so he may struggle vs Porters wild aggression aswell.
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I dont think any of those guys stop him accept roided up Pacquiao and Tito Trinidad and im not sure who you are referring to with Lopez

Dynamicpuncher · Jan 31, 2025

Joeywill said: ↑

I dont think any of those guys stop him accept roided up Pacquiao and Tito Trinidad and im not sure who you are referring to with Lopez
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Jose Luis Lopez very heavy handed and had an iron chin.

I know @Serge is a fan of his aswell.

Loudon · Jan 31, 2025

JusABoxinFan said: ↑

The bold read is all that matters.

Terence is great, because of his official accolades. It's silly to judge him based on guys who fought well before his time as a competitor as Crawford has always gunned for the best opponents (champions) in the division he is competing in.

Going off of what he's actually done.......
-4 division champion.
-3x Lineal.
-2x Undisputed.
-2x Fighter of the Year.
-2x ESPY Award Winner.
-10x world champion.
-Victories over 12 world champions.
----6 were undefeated going into the fight.
----2 were ranked top 5 p4p by every major boxing sanction on fight night.......

If we can only judge him on what he's actually done and based on his OFFICIAL accolades.....What I've wrote above should shut up all the nonsense about how credible his resume is. Everything there is documented in the history of the sport. But there are a lot who have a personal distain on Crawford because maybe he beat their favorite fighter, is compared to their favorite fighter, and/or has accomplished what their favorite fighter couldn't accomplish. So everything I wrote above means nothing to them because it was Terence Bud Crawford who accomplished it and not their favorite fighter.

So without the opinions being applied to this conversation.....what are we debating?
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The official accolades shut down nothing.

It doesn’t matter what the official accolades are.

It doesn’t matter how they read.

Context is needed.

Terence has an average resume.

And compared to many other greats of the past, it’s weak.

He’s beaten no prime ATG’s.

His resume hasn’t got depth.

They mostly B level guys, and guys on the decline.

That is a fact.

And his official accolades will not change that.

Joeywill · Jan 31, 2025

Loudon said: ↑

The official accolades shut down nothing.

It doesn’t matter what the official accolades are.

It doesn’t matter how they read.

Context is needed.

Terence has an average resume.

And compared to many other greats of the past, it’s weak.

He’s beaten no prime ATG’s.

His resume hasn’t got depth.

They mostly B level guys, and guys on the decline.

That is a fact.

And his official accolades will not change that.
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Neither has Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiou, Roy Jones, Pernell Whitaker and can be argued neither has Sugar Ray Leonard

Loudon · Jan 31, 2025

Joeywill said: ↑

Neither has Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiou, Roy Jones, Pernell Whitaker and can be argued neither has Sugar Ray Leonard
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Terence has no win over a prime ATG, OR a deep resume.

He has neither.

You need to absorb this information.

It’s not a criticism of him personally.

But it’s just how it is.

The official accolades sound incredibly impressive.

Until you see who he fought to obtain them.

Joeywill · Jan 31, 2025

Loudon said: ↑

Terence has no win over a prime ATG, OR a deep resume.

He has neither.

You need to absorb this information.

It’s not a criticism of him personally.

But it’s just how it is.

The official accolades sound incredibly impressive.

Until you see who he fought to obtain them.
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It's deeper than you are giving credit for and resume isn't everything which is information that you need to absorb

Loudon · Jan 31, 2025

Joeywill said: ↑

It's deeper than you are giving credit for and resume isn't everything which is information that you need to absorb
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No, it isn’t.

I have no issue with Terence.

I think he’s a great fighter.

But he has a weak resume, compared to many other great fighters.

An end of career Khan. A shot Kell, who had zero punch resistance. Ricky Burns. Postol. A tough B level Porter. Spence.

That is poor compared to MANY other greats.

It IS mostly about resume.

Do you know why?

Because as great as Terence looks, we don’t KNOW if he could beat an Oscar, a Floyd or a Manny etc.

Read CAREFULLY:

If you haven’t got an extremely good resume, then under traditional ranking criteria, you haven’t got a hope of being considered the GOAT.

JusABoxinFan · Jan 31, 2025

OddR said: ↑

IMO Prime is a steady period of strong form while your still close enough physical prime but Peak is your highest of highs in my opinion.

For example in my opinion Muhammad Ali was still close to his prime in 1970-1974 but it wasn't his absolute height which would be 1965-1967.
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That sounds good, but that is not the definition of prime. An athlete's prime is the point in time of his career where he's at his best. One's peak would be the exact moment you are at your best which would suggest the peak is during your prime.

Just going off of the actual definition of the words, I was confused as to how someone could be at their peak but not in their prime.

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