What if Jeffries beat Johnson?

The only way I see Johnson losing to Jeffries is if the fight was totally crooked, and something like the ref dqs Jack for a stupid infringement.
He's not getting a win over jack any other way.

 

He would almost certainly have gone straight back into retirement.

He didn't really want to be there.

 

I think he goes back into retirement. He retired six years earlier and it took a lot of pressure to get him back out.

 

Negotiating to get the fight scheduled for 10 or 12 rounds, and/or a corrupt referee, would have been a great start to possibly getting James a very dodgy decision or DQ/Foul win. 45 rounds, and straight up, was suicidal.

Anyway, if James J. Jeffries had managed to get the win somehow I think he would have gone back into retirement, PERMANENTLY.

 

I think at this point Langford had an outstanding world title claim which expires in April 1911 when Wells wins the NSC belt. So if Jeffries exits stage left, Langford enters stage right.

 

No indication he would have kept fighting, he probably would have retired again and ceremoniously passed the title on to Fireman Jim Flynn or Gunboat Smith or somebody

 

Jeffries only came back due to both extremely heavy public coercion and a HUGE pay check.

Jim made it clear that he wasn’t thrilled trying to get himself back into shape.

Also, those in his camp were not happy with Jeffries opting for limited and less than ideal sparring, at least in the latter stages of his camp.

So yeah, even if Jim somehow beat Johnson, I definitely think he would’ve still retired again.

I doubt that he would’ve wanted a piece of the likes of Langford, MvVey and Jeanette.

That begs a sub question - IF Jeffries did beat Johnson and chose to continue, would he have gotten away with drawing the colour line again?

Perhaps he might’ve been seen as having broken his self imposed “seal”, setting a precedent and therefore expected to clean out his other eligible contenders, colour notwithstanding.

OR, would a Jeffries win have only seen exactly what happened when Willard lifted the title from Johnson? - that being the express preclusion of any black challengers by the powers that be for a very long, 2 decades plus

 

He wouldn't have gotten away with it(in terms of staying champion) because Langford already was a claimant and supported by non American authorities. Langford was a Canadian and not Jack Johnson and that made the dynamics here a bit different. But Jeffries wouldn't have fought Langford because whatever delusions Jeffries had of beating Johnson maybe based on Johnsons earlier form wouldn't have been there with Langford. So Jeffries would have probably retired.

If Jeffries would have won against Johnson he'd have been able to retire as the best ever HW and many would pick him to beat Langford without him actually fighting him. After all Johnson had beaten Langford way back when and he'd beaten Johnson. He'd be silly to trade in what would have been the perfect ending for a trip to the hospital. Unlike in 1904 Jeffries in 1910 was vulnerable and out of his depth. If he'd kept fighting other semi relevant opponents things would have went south regardless. So sticking around and gatekeeping the lineal belt wasn't going to happen.

 

The actual complexion of Jeffries fantasy win in this scenario (an important variable perhaps) isn’t actually described apart from “what if…by some miracle”, so I’ll take that to mean an anomaly that Jeffries couldn’t repeat.

There’s also the question of a Johnson rematch which Jack would no doubt want.

I’m not so sure that Jeffries wouldn’t get away with the colour line for at least some period after winning the title back - the whites were happy enough to have the title of superiority back, even if it in superficial name only.

Jeffries had already gotten away with ducking the outstandingly eligible Johnson when Jeff was Champ.

Remember also that Woodman/Langford advertised willingness to fight any man BUT Jeffries when Jim was Champ.

It was clearly a false, superfluous sentiment because Jeffries wasn’t going to fight Langford anyway - with that being the case, the advert would’ve won brownie points with the whites in a show of apparent deference to the white champ.

Suffice to say, Langford was much more favoured than Johnson by the white press and public.

I believe Langford even picked Jeffries to defeat Johnson - a man of Sam’s own intellect, skill, and up close and personal appreciation of Johnson’s skills surely knew better - but again, think brownie points.

 

If Jeffries did beat Johnson he'd have been insane to agree to a rematch.

With Langford being viewed as champ by much of the world Jeffries maintaining the color barrier was untenable.

a)If Jeffries wins the Johnson fight the credibility of the lineage comes from Jeffries in an otherwise balkanized boxing world. If he retires that credibility goes away and Langford will be recognized over whatever replacement the US boxing authorities come up with in 1910/1911.

b)If Jeffries keeps fighting he probably gets defeated by whatever serious HW he happens to fight next and that fighter or the fighter that beats that fighter etc will eventually fight Langford.

c)He can just do nothing in which case he will gradually lose his recogniton. Johnson only defended twice in the next 3.5 years before the IBU crowned Langford. But Johnson had some leeway because of his recent activity. If Jeffries doesn't fight for 2 years after 1 fight in 6 years he will be increasingly viewed as retired.

We can debate how deserving of a title shot Johnson was in the early 1900s. But either way he did not have world title recognition at that point which Langford did. Which makes getting away with ducking someone different. Because if some consider the guy you aren't fighting the "real champ" you are by definition not "getting away with".

When Jeffries was champ Langford was a teenager fighting at WW and Jeffries was the best HW in the fledgling sports history. Langford being intimidated by Jeffries in 1903 or 1904 has no bearing on the situation in 1910 or 1911. In terms of Langford picking Jeffries, Johnson was a fighter Langford had fought in 1906 while Jeffries was a legend who hadn't fought in six years. In terms of predictability no one had any idea what to expect.

Johnson was a much better matchup for Jeffries than Langford though. Jeffries had no chance at defeating the Langford that walked through Schreck and Lang IMO too much power and speed. With Johnson maybe one could see Jeffries at the peak of his powers imposing his will over a long fight with Johnson. Against Langford it was never getting to that point.

Langford was Canadian he didn't fit neatly into American racial dynamics. No doubt though Johnson was the white publics least favorite black HW.

 

Johnson was deserving through 03/04 and 05.

Quite simply, if he wasn’t black, he gets the shot OR, if he still didn’t get the shot, then Jeffries would’ve been under even more pressure and discredited even more than he was at the time.

Langford feared no one. He would’ve fought Jeffries any time IF given the chance - Langford knew that chance would never come while Jeffries held the crown.

I strongly believe he picked Jeffries just because it was the “done thing” to do and perhaps also because he was shut out by Johnson - so no love lost there.

Jeffries might’ve gotten away with reactivating the colour line - it was reactivated after all when Willard got his hands on the crown and maintained for a good number of years thereafter.

OR, if Jeffries retired immediately after “beating” Johnson, he could’ve ordained two white hopes to fight for the vacant title..not like it wasn’t done before.

 

The Persians told the Spartans if they wanted to, they could destroy Sparta.

Sparta replied "IF".

There's no way Jeffries could have beaten Johnson at the time of their fight. So the question "What if" is moot.

 

If your statement is true its only because Jeffries had otherwise cleaned out the division. Johnson didn't not deserve a shot but there was no comulsion for Jeffries to fight him in particular especially when he first won the "colored" title. At that point he more killed Martins title shot than earned his own. When he beat Martin Johnson was 1-2-3 against Jeffries opponents and they were his lower end opponents in Choynski, Kennedy, Everett and Griffin. He did not inherit Martins momentum that took time.

I never said Langford did fear anyone.

At this particular juncture(1910-1915) Jeffries naming two white fighers to succeed him like in 1905 wasn't possible because black fighters made up 4 of the top 5 or 6 and everyone knew it. There were also no 2 top white fighters that Langford or Johnson hadn't yet defeated. Part of why attempts to set up a "white" heavyweight title was an epic disaster was no one had an earthly clue who the best US white HWs were and they couldn't use Flynn, Ross, Kaufman, Schreck(or Commonwealth champ Burns) because they'd already lost to Langford and/or Johnson. Carl Morris was the logical pick and then bam he lost to Flynn. Johnsons sparring partner Gunboat Smith eventually establishes himself as the uncrowned top white HW.......but this is in 1913 over 3 years after this scenario. And after going on his run he fights Langford right away twice.

Also it was a very balkanized world and the rest of the world did not yet recognize the US lineage as the "real belt" at least not blindly. Both the Maher v O Donnell and Hart v Root lineages were challenged and those opposing claims were eventually unified. They didn't just get the recognition they have today in real time and while the US lineages eventually usually won out this was dependent on fight results it didn't just happen. And the guys Jeffries picked were going to be unlikely to win said unification bouts. Because he was picking 2 random prospects.

MW at this time possibly had more belts than any division in the history of boxing because no one agreed on who the champ was after Ketchels death. Naming a new champ could go very sideways. Jeffries couldn't pick 2 randos(which he'd be forced to do in this scenario) say the winner was his successor and everyone would just agree to it. There was no internet, every part of the world was its own little world.

The color line to the extent it ever existed was not reactivated after Willard took the crown. Dempsey froze Wills out in contradiction with even the NYSAC. And unlike in the 1910s when black HWs usually had a majority of the top 10 in the 1920s Wills was usually the only black HW in the top 10 and then Godfrey was.