Better resume Ali vs Mayweather

Who has them among their greats?

 

Some people were comparing Mahomes to Brady. I don't see them doing it today. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

 

If someone is 42-1 against someone like Douglas, it means that the favorite's loss is the result of a coincidence. These things happen, just like winning the lottery... And it happened this time too, what's strange about it? There are people who die of a heart attack at the age of 30 and others at the age of 70, some people fall into addiction at the age of a dozen or so and others live very healthily for the rest of their lives. Keden becomes impotent at the age of 30 and the other becomes a father at the age of 60 Each of us is different, my friend, we have different lives.
Answer the question for yourself whether Tyson's 37 fights before Douglas were a coincidence, or whether that 1 fight in Tokyo was a coincidence that he almost didn't win.
And trust me, if you party all night long, you'll feel bad in the morning, even if you're 20.

 

We have the reason. He lost in his prime because he didn't feel well. That's a kind of progress I guess. Why did he lose to Holyfield twice? He fought for another fourteen years. Shouldn't the GOAT, the BOAT, the TBE have won it back over that period?

 

Because in 1996 he was weaker than Holyfield, in 2004 he was weaker than Danny Williams... This is not a computer game where you give your characters parameters: speed 9, power 8, mental 8, skill 10 and it stays like this throughout your entire career.
Walcott was yourneyman at the age of 20 and an outstanding champion at the age of 38, Tyson was the opposite.

 

That's fine but a boxer can't lose to all the elite or near elite competition they face that were at the same stage in their career he or she was and be considered the GOAT, the BOAT, or TBE. He lost to James, Evander, and Lennox and never avenged his defeats to them? How can he be the best? I assure you that if Floyd lost to Corrales, De La Hoya, and Pacquiao and never avenged those defeats @NoNeck wouldn't be arguing how great his resume is.

 

Because he won against 5 current world champions, which is a record, because he defended the unified title 6 times, which is also a record since the title was split, because he dominated the current linear champion, which is a great feat, because he was the only one in a 30-year career to knock out Larry Holmes, which no one has done before or since, because he won 12 fights championships, he destroyed three Olympic champions and all his wins in the 1980s were at a very high level. Otherwise, he would not have been No. 1 on the P4P list in The Ring's first classification, which is an exceptional feat for a HW fighter. Before he was 22, he was a two-time boxer of the year according to The Ring. This is the assessment of experts, journalists, my friend. To be honest, later he could even lose to Mickey Mouse.

 

We are discussing entire bodies of work and when

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looked back at his entire body of work they had him at #72:

Ring Magazine's 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years

 

He’s talking about James Toney.

 

James Toney was great but I don't know anyone who has him in their GOAT, BOAT, or TBE or #1 in a pfp or division discussion. No one is saying Mike wasn't great. The discussion is how great. For my American friends Peyton Manning was great but he was no Tom Brady.

 

Tyson won 37-0 in 5 years in the 1980s, Tyson won 2-3 in 5 years in 2000... it's not close or far, it's like from Shanghai to Warsaw. It's a damn abyss. Tyson was about 15 years past prime when he fought Lewis and Danny Williams.

 

When did I call Holmes the best of all time?

I said the best athlete in a sport can't be someone with a losing record against their best competition and I stand by that. I was addressing the notion that Tyson could be the best of all time which is nonsense given he's 2-3 against HOF boxers.

 

Tyson is not the best ever... Secondly, schematization based on old statistics can be misleading... Frazier has the same IBHOF fight record as e.g. Brian Nielsen, Tyson has a worse record than Michael Spinks and Vitali and Wlad Klitschko are behind Kevin McBride... taking it out of context makes no sense. Tyson was the favorite against Spinks 4-1, against Holyfield 17-1. Do you think if he knocked Holyfield out, someone would
appreciated? would have had the same victory as the one over Pinky Thomas. Beating the victim of your sparring partner in 1996 would probably not be among the most elite victories either... context matters

 

Sure but the case for Fraziers greatness rests on him beating Ali. A highly competitive loss or two is not going to be enough for people to rate him as great even given how overrated the era is as a whole.

And while Frazier may be a tough stylistic match pretty clearly Ali could have avoided losing to him under different circumstances.

 

I’ve no idea what point you’re trying to make now.

You’ll have to clarify your position.

My initial point was where you’d compared Frazier having beaten Ali, to where Rahman had beaten Lennox.