James J Braddock in the 1980s: how does he do?

I do think that was a gift decision... Marvis got a ton of those. I also doubt that Braddock would be able to survive the beating that Smith would give him.

 

Braddock was only ever KOd once, he had an iron chin. Handled Baer's shots, who probably hit harder than the very overrated Smith.

 

Why do you think that Baer had a harder punch than Smith? Bonecrusher has a pretty good record of being damn well strong. I also feel like the version of Baer that Braddock faced was lesser to most versions of Smith.

 

Because Baer has a higher KO%, his opponents look more hurt by his punches than Smith on film, statements from people who fought Baer, etc.

Smith has a terrible record when it comes to scoring KOs. Almost everyone and their mom went the distance with him. He could crack, but he wasn't some elite puncher with his abysmal stats.

 

There is less than a 5% difference between Baer and Smith's KO rates, I also think that the visible difference between Smith and Baer's opponents taking punches isn't really something conclusive enough to be comparable, and Smith has some good statements supporting his strength, too.

32 of 44 isn't really a terrible KO record... And that's with him being a bit of a bad finisher. During the 80s, his overall best years as a fighter, 10 of his 31 fights went the distance- With most of those fights ending in favor of his opponent. Even if he lost decisions or ended up not being able to finish off an opponent, I think his power is still pretty clear.

I've seen guys say that Ribalta stated Smith to be the hardest puncher he faced, but I can't find any source for that so I won't quote it. Ruddock said that he was the hardest puncher he faced (bare minimum > guys like Lewis, Tyson, Weaver, etc.) and I think that Smith's power is obviously pretty palpable looking at his fights against Tyson (yeah, I know it was still a stinker), Weaver, Bruno, Holmes, Ribalta, and otherwise.

 

You're somehow forgetting all the fights Smith LOST. 17 losses means 17 people weren't KOd by Smith. Nielson was KOd 3x but went the distance with Smith. Page was stopped 6x and went the distance with Smith. Marvis Frazier was a feather fisted Cruiserweight and he went the distance with Smith. Levi Billups, a journeyman who was KOd 10x and went the distance with Smith. Adilson Rodrigues had a pretty weak chin getting KOd 7x but went the distance with Smith.

Smith somehow made a habit of being unable to KO chinny men who weren't particularly hard to KO. You can't just blame it on the fact he was a sloppy finisher. Ernie Shavers, Wilder, or Baer himself were sloppy finishers and still had more notable KOs (both quality and quantity) over Smith. No one is saying Smith was feather fisted, he obviously could hit hard, but he wasn't some sort of godly power puncher.

Ruddock didn't mention Smith as the hardest hitter he faced, he said Smith was physically strong. He did say he hit hard, but not the hardest. The fighters he said hit the hardest were: Morrison, Lewis, Weaver, and Tyson. You can Google it.

 

When talking about KO percentages, I'd figure that we're talking about a fighter's win to KO rate... That's typically what people are talking about when they bring up KO percentages. Bringing up Nielsen, Page, and Billups doesn't make too much sense considering that Smith was basically trial horse by late '91. By that time he was flinching at jabs and barely throwing punches at all. Frazier showed what was probably his BEST performance when going the distance with Smith (even though James was robbed in this one), a lot of heart and maneuverability on his part- And Rodriguez stunk the place out even worse than Smith did against Tyson. He ran, clinched, and threw very few punches on his way to a gift decision. If you go back and watch that fight, the crowd was booing since the very first round.

Given the distance runs against chinny men that would otherwise be outliers on his resume, you're right, you can blame it on a lot more than just him being a bad finisher. But I didn't blame on just that, I think that Smith's inconsistent ability and style combined with other things made his punching power seem less than it really was. His habit to underperform against kinda "no-name" fighters while looking much better against title holders or big names is also something to be mentioned. I don't think you're calling him feather-fisted, but I think that his power is on the same scale as Baer's- Whether you think that that qualifies as "godly" or not is up to you.

I think it's very clear from what Ruddock was saying that Smith was the hardest puncher he faced. If he had just called him strong, then I wouldn't bring this up as a point, but he also explicitly talks about how his punch was and felt during the "STRONGEST" excerpt.

STRONGEST
James “Bonecrusher” Smith: At the weigh in, I tried to feel his strength. I leaned on him and it was like leaning on a wall. He was fornicating unbelievably strong. He was terrifying and embodied what it meant to be a slugger. Bonecrusher would punch through you. I tell you, when he punched me it felt like an earthquake. Every inch of your body felt that power.

BEST PUNCHER
Tyson: Tommy Morrison had a very good left hook; he caught me and dropped me. Lennox is a strong puncher. Weaver’s punch was a single-punch that would be a devastating knockout. Tyson’s punch was a series of powerful punches, like a submachine gun looking to annihilate you. Tyson has a punch to remember.

 

Braddock was an arm puncher most of his career. However he looks capable in his fight against Louis. I don’t know how long Arcel was in his corner but he was there for the Louis bout and I think he got lot out of Braddock for that fight. He looks much improved against a truly great fighter.
If he turned pro at light heavy in the 1980s I think he would lose quite often but also be able to spring some good upsets. He was quite determined. Great chin. In shape. Those guys always pull out some wins that they aren’t supposed to. Something like a Ross Purrity or Mike bounty Hunter type career imo.

 

I think that Braddock would experience massacres in all 3 categories:
LHW Michael Spinks (LHW lost quality with Jynx's departure)
CW Holyfield
HW Holmes and Tyson (Whiterspoon, Bruno...)

 

He literally doesn't mention Smith when asked about the strongest punchers in the very thing you're quoting. He said Smith was physically strong and he could feel his punches, but I have no idea how you believe he "very clearly" believes Smith was the hardest hitter when during the same interview he fails to mention Smith for the punching power category.

Aside from KO%, the fact Baer killed some fighters, and, uh, the eye test, there's also the fact Baer is often cited as one of the hardest hitters of all time by both common opponents and writers. Smith is not. Tyson, Holmes, Weaver, Ruddock and other boxers failed to mention Smith as the hardest hitter they faced. Usually when someone is a devastating puncher, their name pops up a lot in these conversations.

I just don't get all the hype for Smith given the very high number of opponents who managed to go the distance with him, his lack of consistency when it comes to actually scoring KOs, the underwhelming footage, and the lack of common opponents vouching for him. He no doubt hit hard, definitely above average, but I wouldn't say he's a devastating hitter like Wilder, Tua, Baer, or even Mercer. Smith is about Samuel Peter level in terms of power to be honest. A decently hard clubber who can throw some solid, albeit sloppy power punches.

Either way, Smith is so sloppy and slow I can't see him winning by KO against the cagey iron chinned Braddock outside of a puncher's chance. Smith certainly wouldn't be "too big" for Braddock given all the much smaller men Smith struggled with like Marvis Frazier.

 

Because to me it's clear that during the "BEST PUNCHER" excerpt, he's not talking about the strength of a man's punch exclusively. He had just talked about Smith when asked for the prior category, and then when he gets into talking about fighters' punches, he's not talking strictly strength. Read again the way he's talking about Smith's punch (when winning the STRONGEST category), "Bonecrusher would punch through you. I tell you, when he punched me it felt like an earthquake. Every inch of your body felt that power." Compared to " Tyson’s punch was a series of powerful punches, like a submachine gun looking to annihilate you. Tyson has a punch to remember."

Talking about eye tests... I think a decent bit of Baer's KOs or knockdowns look insanely sloppy- About as sloppy or even worse than Smith's. Weaver said that Smith was the strongest guy he faced, and the only reason he didn't name him as the hardest puncher was because he was into his 30's when facing James, as opposed to fighting and sparring with Mercado in his 20's. Holmes fought Shavers, I already went over the Ruddock thing, and Tyson mentions Ribalta as the strongest guy he's faced and Holyfield as the best puncher... Something you could properly hold against him is Witherspoon neglecting to mention him when he was asked (instead referring to Golota as the strongest and Bruno as the best puncher respectively), but otherwise, most of the aforementioned guys DID bring him up in this regard.

It's ok if you don't see it, man. I don't personally see Baer stopping Bruno or Weaver, but you might see it differently.

Good talking with you as always, though!