Chisora Greater than Wilder?

Exactly, and it’s a shame to do it.
I reckon the hardest at hw are Holyfield and Ali to pick through, but I still reckon I could.

Especially when there’s the conspiracies involved too.

a stranger one is that some fighters have actually been linked to dodgy people who have been accused of conspiring, yet the fans don’t accuse them of any and accuse the others.

 

Ali needed cut glove to recover from cooper
Floyd Patterson glass jaw who was already smashed
Liston must have been 40 plus
Mafia paid him to take a dive
Cleveland Williams could hardly stand
Foreman softened frazier up
Foreman mentally fatigued with cut and extended build up. Also loose ropes
Lost to Norton 3 times
Lost titles to a novice spinks

Yeah it's not too difficult to pick holes

 

But if we don’t trust ratings, there is no such thing as a “top guy”

Parker was a world champion and looks decent.

Ortiz had a solid Cuban amateur career (wiki says 343–19) he looked the part and was the most technically text book boxer in the hw division at his peak (prior to usyk) he looked the part and had the amateur background to back him. Unfortunately he’s Cuban though so doesn’t sell many tickets.

Whyte has no amateur background, looks like Bambi on ice with big tits, belly and a left hook.
He wanted no part of Ortiz in their final eliminator so Ortiz got the wbc shot

 

Exactly my thoughts.
So Chisora is better than Ali too

 

Presumably we can rate on results and consistently

Ortiz to me proved he was better than Charles Martin Gerald Washington and Arreola level fighters which would for a while put him in the top 10 regardless of how you think he does against Parker Joyce Chisora etc

 

your still saying “me”, “we”, “you”….

I don’t rate/rank fighters, it’s not my job.
We do not rank fighters, as it’s not my job so I am not part of the “we”

it may be your job, but you can do that alone and publish them in accordance with whichever governing body you work for.

Getting back to reality though, the official governing bodies and organisations tell us their rankings and champions etc.
this is then considered a matter of FACT in the sport of boxing.

the WBC/WBA/IBF etc rankings are official and your and mine opinion is irrelevant.

these are the facts!

In all sports (if you compete on a decent level) you will be familiar with many decisions/choices being made by a human being who is considered a representative of the official governing body.
What the official people decide is considered to be a final decision.
For example, if ref calls it a low blow, it’s a low blow, nobody else’s opinion matters to the official record.

“We” on this forum (in case you aren’t clear) our opinions on rankings are completely and utterly irrelevant!

When you understand that, you can start respecting the sport you claim to be a fan of.
“Me, we and you” are all irrelevant

 

It's not my argument, its your argument. You listed him there. You did that.

 

If we are discussing the merits of Wilders win over Ortiz than I don't think ratings help us much given they are based largely on guesswork and not tangible results.

If Ortiz has beaten Whyte Parker Chisora in actual fights and not the imagination of experts it would be a totally different matter

Wilder lost to Parker and Zhang in actual fights. To me that trumps people subjectively rating him higher

 

I've never made the case that ratings are infallible though. Which makes them highly suspect in terms of saying how valuable a win is.

Generally when I list ratings I go by ring magazine not my personal opinion. I would rate Moses Itauma in the top 5 but to my knowledge nobody else has him that high

I also think a number of cruiserweights could beat Ortiz and for me that drops him in the ratings farther

 

In his prime Wilder would've knocked Chisora out IMO but if they fought now it's a genuine 50/50

 

Chisora gave us many good fights, he tried hard.

Wilder gave us a bunch of mismatches.

 

I’m gonna go with no

 

I don’t think you understand a ranking system. This is the issue.
A ranking system DOES NOT mean you have beat everyone below you. they are not based on guesswork, they are based on your career.

I personally think Whyte is very very poor, but he was ranked high and I can’t argue with that fact. he was offered a wbc final eliminator against Ortiz and Whyte passed on it, so Ortiz got the wbc shot.
No imagination is neccasary except to justify your thought process.
The published rankings are factual and a boxing fan may not like it but it has to be accepted. the champion has to accept those too. The champion must defend against top 15 ranked opponents which wilder did.

If you want to pick a dodgy one, it’s not Ortiz.
It’s Tyson fury vs Francis ngannou. How on earth did Francis get a top 15 ranking as a complete novice. but understanding the authority in boxing, I accept he was given this ranking.

Rankings are subjective, so are decision wins…ko’s can even be (wilder could have scored 2kos over fury)

You sound like a little kid, or tin foil hat or a pot head, talking too much about your opinion and not accepting the system you are a fan of.
Why is pot illegal in uk? Who decided that?
Was Covid real, who decided to do lockdowns?

Wilder has lost to those people at the end of his career whilst they are at their peak. So what it’s happened to almost everyone.
Is Roy not as good as his losses against nobodies now?

 

So you personally use/respect the ring magazine rankings but in the case of Ortiz you reject them. So you only use them when it suits your agenda?
And you’re complaining about subjectivity?

ituama a top 5?
Which top 10 did he beat to get there? (Your criteria)

you think some guys in a different division could beat Ortiz so you change his ranking in hw?

you definitely sound like a pot head now. lol.

also, we are talking about Ortiz ranking when wilder fought him, not now.