What if Jeffries beat Johnson?

Both Langford and Jeannette picked Jeffries to beat Johnson by an emphatic stoppage,so much for black solidarity.lol Was the underlined an intentional pun?

 

Then I'd believe that Wlad and Mayweather could stage comebacks today and dominate

 

No Mac, not an intentional pun - nice pick up - perhaps I should edit before the PC crowd descends upon me.

 

Jeffries hadn’t otherwise cleaned out the division.

Even if that was the view, then it clearly left Johnson, the so called colour Champ, as his outstanding challenger - so due respect but can’t see a point there aside for affirming the recommendation of Johnson.

Jeffries resume is comprised by engagements in long overdue (pointless) rematches with even older and more inactive versions of Fitz and Corbett over whom he had prevailed over.

He fought an over advertised miner in Munro to round out his career - after which he sat on his tile until Johnson was removed from the picture.

There was a strong compulsion for Jeffries to fight Johnson - the demand was ever increasing until Johnson’s bubble was “burst” via Greggains crooked decision in the Hart fight - shortly after which, Jeffries retired. Timing is everything.

You said “Langford being intimidated by Jeffries in 03/04….” I won’t quibble on that though, the fact is Langford didn’t fear fighting or losing to Jeffries at any point - that point can be taken as a counter to the above statement or a stand alone point in its own right.

For all intents and purposes, the colour line did reactivate post Willard title win (1915) through to Louis’ shot in 1937 - not one black challenger eligible for a shot during the 22 year interim?

IIRC, the marquee promoter for Reno, Rickard, swore he’d never promote a Title fight between a black man and white man again.

It took an exceedingly outstanding fighter who also had to acutely mind his Ps and Qs to finally see a black challenger afforded a shot at the HW Title. Louis was even instructed to not celebrate his wins as a white fighter would ordinarily and be permitted to do without anyone batting an eyelid.

 

Yes he had. All his white replacements were LHWs and Johnson hadn't won half his fights and had a losing record against Jeffries lower end opponents. Johnson doesn't inherhit Martins case for a title shot just by beating him. Martin was 15-1-1, Johnson was 10-3-6. Plug another 2 random fighters into that situation and thats clear. Jeffries fighting Johnson or Munroe in 1904 was an either or thing. Johnson beats Munroe in 1905.

I agree on the Fitz and Corbett rematches bit and the nature of Jeffries early 20th century reign being holdovers from the past era. Our disagreement is who he would have fought instead. And the answer is really just Martin. Childs was too small and Johnson wasn't ready. You're talking more 1905 when Jeffries was retiring and speculating that Jeffries would have kept the belt if Johnson beat Hart. Johnson got his eliminator with Hart in 1905 and lost. IMO Hart was the 3rd best LHW coming up to HW behind Schreck and Root. Gardner who was Johnsons best win at this time was also better. Johnson at this time was an elite fighter and he could have gotten a title shot but he wasn't the best HW until 1907 and he wasn't someone Jeffries needed to fight. This is like Tunney not sticking around to fight Schmeling who was briefly IBU champ a few months before Tunney retired. Yeah Tunney could have fought Schmeling at that time and Schmeling would have deserved it but we're not lamenting missing the fight because people in 1928 thought it needed to happen.

Oh nm I see what you mean now in 1903/1904. I was saying that Langfords thoughts in 1903/1904 didn't apply to what he thought in 1909 and later when the dynamics were very different. In 1903/1904 Langford was a teenager fighting at MW or WW and Jeffries was the undefeated best HW ever. Langford by 1910 destroys Jeffries and Jeffries should be terrified of Langford.

"For all intents and purposes, the colour line did reactivate post Willard title win (1915) through to Louis’ shot in 1937 - not one black challenger eligible for a shot during the 22 year interim?". During that period besides Wills, Godfrey, Langford at the beginning and Louis at the end there were no top 5ish black HWs. Wills and Langford dominated a pretty good generation from 1915-1925 but Godfreys era was not good. Godfrey eventually became the IBU champion in 1935 retiring on top. You had Gains who was the Commonwealth champ fighting mostly in the UK and thats about it. Guys like Tate or Thompson might have gotten a title shot at some point if they were white but thats not a color barrier. Also 6 of these 15 years no one got a title shot.

To the extent the color line was real it targeted guys outside the top 2 or 3. Top white fighters would usually fight the top black HW or the 2nd best black HW but would rarely if ever fight a black HW not considered one of the top 3. You can see the number of decent white opponents a Langford, Johnson or Jeanette had and contrast that to a McVea, Tate or Thompson or any such fighter and the difference is stark.

The best black HW usually got some form of shot even if only Johnsons is recognized as lineal. Wills aside Childs and Martin were the only ones who were actually the best black HW who got no shots at some form of world title with everyone in the early 1910s generation getting an oppurtunity except McVea. It was usually just 1 oppurtunity though. Being American was certainly a factor too as all the best guys who got iced out were American and Jack Johnson is the only pre Louis black American HW to have more than 1 world title fight(Billy Wilson fought for the Northwest title twice prior to the existence of the world title).

 

Aye if Johnson lost Langford would emerge from a nearby rose bush and drag him down to the meat grinder that was McVey, Wills, and Jeanette.

 

@HistoryZero26

Addressed thusly due to too many characters.

Jeffries didn’t clear out the division - he didn’t face Johnson.

Around the time Jeffries fought Munroe (7-2) as that time, Johnson had a run of 19 fights without a loss (16 wins, 2 draws and 1 NC).

Re Munroe and Johnson, it most certainly wasn’t a case of either or, Johnson’s credentials for a shot were far more outstanding and the complexion/outcome of the Jeffries- Munroe fight proved how much of a soft and undeserving challenger Munroe was.

Munroe’s only real claim was an alleged previous KD of Jeffries in a 4 round bout back in Dec 02. Without that, Munroe wasn’t getting a shot and they fed him the carcasses and Sharkey and Maher to dignify his eventual granting of a title shot in Aug 04 - easy for some to get their chance at Jeffries.

By Oct 04, Johnson had beaten Martin TWICE, and resoundingly so in the rematch. Johnson was the outstanding contender, absolute. And, to repeat, Johnson was blatantly robbed against Hart.

Dempsey might’ve fought some other black fighters earlier in the piece, but the only one I know of for sure was John Lester Johnson in 1916?

Otherwise, and I’m not saying Dempsey used the colour line as an excuse because he actually didn’t BUT Jack did admit that he did not want to face Sam Langford.

Upon winning the title, I believe it was formally stated by Dempsey, or at least on his behalf, that he would not be facing any black challengers.

Then there was Tunney of course who didn’t (refused) to face any black fighters during his whole career.

The period during which black challengers were shut out was 22 years (not 15 years).

You can subtract the time when no one was granted a shot but that was well inside the total period in question and isn’t arguable as a protraction of period of the colour line.

All my point has ever been re Langford was that he wouldn’t have feared facing Jeffries at any time (notwithstanding his chances at any given point in time) and if offered, he would’ve jumped at the opportunity - BUT, like ALL black fighters of that time, Sam knew Jeffries wasn’t defending against ANY black fighters, notwithstanding their credentials.

 

No doubt Munroe proved he was an undeserving challenger and Johnson beat him the next year. But in 1904 no one knows this and you could make the case Munroe was the more exciting challenger if not record wise stylewise. Whether or not the Jeffries KO happened and should have created hype it created hype. In 1904 Munroe and Johnson were the sort of guy a champ fought when the division was cleaned out. If Jeffries had retired without fighting either of them it wouldn't have been held against him at that time. Munroe was the Andre Berto or Dan Cockell of this story. And if Johnson had gotten the shot in 1904 he'd have been the Dan Cockell or Andre Berto of this story.

The problem with the Martin wins is Johnsons 2nd KO over Martin was Martins 3rd bad KO loss in 4 fights. Munroes wins over Sharkey and Maher were similar in that regard. Martin was considered the number 1 contender in 1902. He did not keep that status.

Dempsey fought John Lester Jackson as did Fulton. JLJ was sort of in between the 2 groups I described before. He had like 5 or 6 fights against notable white HWs out of 51 which is more than Tate, Thompson or Clark got.

Dempsey ducked Wills it is the most blatant duck in HW history. Tunneys situation was totally different. During Tunneys time as HW champ there were no potential black challengers except Godfrey. Tunney gets the belt around the time Sharkey beats Wills and Tunneys last title fight was decided by tournament which I think Godfrey was in. I know Godfrey was in one of Tex Richards tournaments and lost. Not sure if it was the one to fight Tunney or the one to replace him off the top of my head. Either way Tunney didn't pick Heeney. At LHW Norfolk won and lost his title claim before Tunney became champ. And Siki was champ for a few months and was in Europe. Who else was there?

Tunneys reign in general saw the weakest group of black HWs. During Dempseys reign there were black HWs that could have gotten title shots in a different era but whose resumes weren't good enough because of all the losses to Wills, Langford and later Godfrey. Guys like Tate, Thompson, Clark, Tut Jackson and the aformentioned John Lester Johnson. Between Wills and Louis those types of guys weren't really in the picture anymore. Gains was the 2nd best HW for most of the time between Wills and Louis. The 3rd best was Larry Johnson and he was more kinda the best black LHW who fought in both divisions like most elite LHWs did back then. Same with Tiger Jack Fox later on. After that we've got Silas Green and Bearcat Wright. Out of Joe Louis's 25 defenses between 37 and 42 he only fought one black challenger and thats because there really wasn't many and Murray, Ray, Bivins, Charles, Walcott were either at LHW, green or both.


It was 20 years as Godfrey got a title shot in 1935 from the IBU and 15 years was using the subtraction of 16-19, 23-26. A color line is an official policy or informal policy preventing the best black fighter from getting a title shot. NYSAC ordered Dempsey to fight Wills. The British had Larry Gains as their champion for 3 years and he got 3 chances to regain. Sure the Commonwealth wasn't a major belt anymore by this time but no one told the British that. Gains spent most of his career in the UK and when he did come to the US he lost to Wiggins and Martin Burke. The only guy who was the top black HW who never got a title shot was Wills and the powers at be were going to give it to him. That responsibility falls on the shoulders of Jack Dempsey. Now as discussed in the prior posts this was not equality any given black fighters white counterpart didn't need to be the top white HW to get a title shot and multiple title shots etc. But that isn't a color line thats discrimination. And there is a difference.

I feel you're not getting what I'm saying about Langford and Jeffries. I'm saying it didn't matter what Langford said about him in 1904 and its the same as Dempsey being intimidated by Langford or Fulton in 1914 or Jeffries being scared of John L Sullivan in 1892. Ali being scared of Liston in 1959 but destroying him a few years later. I'm saying Langford destroys Jeffries and all the deference Langford showed Jeffries was when Jeffries was unbeaten champ and Langford was a teenage MW. And said comments from that time mean nothing. That was the point I was trying to make. I think Langford is much better than Jeffries.

 

There actually would’ve been even more of an outcry had Jeffries retired before the Johnson - Hart robbery, the outcome for which conveniently allowed Jeffries to ride off into the sunset without ever having faced Johnson himself despite Johnson’s clear, prior eligibility.

Even with that robbery, people did and still do recognise that Jeffries simply didn’t face Johnson when he should have. Many believe that Jeffries expressly avoided Johnson despite Johnson’s eligibility (eligible save for Johnson being black).

The Langford point is cut and dried. I do understand what you’re trying to say. My point is that Langford advertising to face anyone BUT Jeffries. whatever age/status Langford was and whatever chance he might have had as at that time, can be strongly argued to not have been at all genuine.

Again, why would any black fighter bother precluding a white champion who already made it clear, in both in words and practice, that he wouldn’t be accomodating ANY black challengers? Jeffries had already and clearly precluded himself. Due respect but I think you’ve been missing my simple point(s) re this matter all the while.

As to hype, Johnson flattening Jeffries brother back in 1902 (who Jeffries cornered during the fight) should’ve been a sufficient angle for Jeffries to seek revenge.