Sonny Liston or Wladimir Klitschko who rates higher as a all time heavyweight?

I think he's cleverer, although I suppose that doesn't absolve him of suspicion of trolling. Dino reinterpreted boxing history around criticism of the Klitschkos. Glaukos is taking aim at some of the more arbitrary-seeming assumptions for how people rate fighters in general around here, which is a more interesting project.

Problem is, the interesting points are hidden behind the (take your pick) difficulty communicating or obscurantism (if you think he's trolling), plus an increasingly heated fight he's having with growing numbers of posters. So I don't think his arguments will catch on.

 

Liston built his reputation overwhelming smaller men who couldn’t handle his strength and power. Floyd Patterson, his most famous victim, was a natural light heavyweight at 188 pounds, and even Cleveland Williams—a so-called “big puncher” of the era—was barely over 200 pounds and never won a meaningful fight. The moment Liston faced a bigger, more mobile opponent in Ali, his intimidation factor vanished, and he was completely outclassed. Wlad, unlike Patterson or Williams, would not be there to be bullied. He wouldn’t need to engage Liston in mid-range exchanges where Liston’s power was most effective he’d dictate the fight with his jab, controlling distance and forcing Liston to work his way inside against a significantly larger opponent.

At the end of the day, Liston is the one with more unknowns in a matchup like this. He never fought a super heavyweight, never faced an elite jabber his own size, and never proved he could adjust against a great fighter. Wlad, on the other hand, fought and dominated big, powerful opponents. If we’re looking purely at head-to-head ability, Klitschko has the better physical tools, the better resume against elite heavyweights, and the style that would completely shut Liston down.

 

Ali was also the first (and probably the best) of that truly post-WW2 generation of heavyweights. More athletic at larger sizes than their predecessors. Liston was relatively big for his era -- maybe a smidge larger than Joe Louis -- but he may have been big in the same sense Harry Wills was: on the higher end of the older size bell curve rather than new curve of more athletic big men.

 

You need to read this comment again:

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...-time-heavyweight.734302/page-5#post-23318143

The fact is that Wlad was a greater champion than Liston in every measurable metric besides some wierd technical 'gotcha' that you are trying to foist on us pretending it is a reasoned argument.

To put it in a nutshell: Wlad beat bigger men which were better than Liston's competition for five times longer than Liston. Ergo, Wlad rates higher as an all time heavyweight.

 

I hope that you are trolling

 

Uh Oh, NoNeck just destroyed Glaukos' technicality with a technicality and elevated Wlad to super-duper ultra champion. How will the nitpickers react to THIS?

 

sorry but there are a few threads
1. Liston was injured in the Ali fight. This has been officially confirmed by several doctors

2. Liston was a relegated fighter, who had been fighting very rarely and training less for a long time. Clay visited him in casinos, not gyms. There is a lot of evidence that Liston was no longer training and was not very focused on boxing when he fought Ali

3. Liston had only 3 one-round fights in the nearly 3 years before the Clay fight. That is ridiculously few. He was not in the rhythm of the fight, not at all, he was not ready for a big fight.

4. Despite the above, Clay DID NOT OUTCLASS Liston. It was actually a good, fairly even fight that was not decided until Sonny said - enough is enough

5. Liston's career history shows that being bigger and not being overshadowed was not some magic method for Liston. Was Williams intimidated? Was Folley intimidated? Did Patterson not take the fight with Liston? You could say that Machen was intimidated and had some success. Foreman claimed that going forward was not a good idea in the fight with Sonny. To win with Sonny it was good to be afraid of him, to be careful without recklessness.

6. Statistics are ok but they should be treated with caution. At least a few of Sonny's fights without official status were much more prestigious and sportingly valuable than at least a few of Wlad's fights in which the belt is at stake. Therefore, a balance like 2-2 vs 25-2 is very misleading.

By writing this I'm not saying that Liston should be higher than Wlad but in my opinion it's much more difficult than it seems.

 

Not ranking champions of other organizations.

 

First thing, I've already said Wlad is greater, but it's straight up hypocrisy to critique Liston for fighting smaller opponents then was lyrical about how big Wlad is and how he used it to his advantage. If you can't see that, you're Stevie ****ing Wonder.

His intimidation factor did not vanish while facing Ali. Before the fight, he made Ali run away in fear, Ali said he wanted no part of Liston in 63. He also stated years later, in no uncertain terms, he was "scared to death" of Liston. And guess what, Wlad is not Ali. He isn't close to being as tough physically or mentally, and isn't anywhere near as mobile or fast.

At the end of the day, Wlad failed to do precisely what you describe against Peter and Brewster. He jabs and grabs, which works well, but he also panics. Panicking at such close range reates openings which Liston is gonna capitalise on. And he hits a lot harder than the guys who knocked Wlad out.

 

While I thought Liston would beat Wlad h2h if the Ukrainian didn't grab him to death,I thought Wlad had more names on his resume.

But Liston's two signature wins over Patterson might put him higher too,but again it's not really the same sig.win like how Duran beat Leonard etc,I dunno.

 

good post is good post

 

Then read the context that got me to start over. His questions are beside the point.