Sonny Liston or Wladimir Klitschko who rates higher as a all time heavyweight?

You need to read this comment again:

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...-time-heavyweight.734302/page-5#post-23318143

The fact is that Wlad was a greater champion than Liston in every measurable metric besides some wierd technical 'gotcha' that you are trying to foist on us pretending it is a reasoned argument.

To put it in a nutshell: Wlad beat bigger men which were better than Liston's competition for five times longer than Liston. Ergo, Wlad rates higher as an all time heavyweight.

 

I hope that you are trolling

 

Uh Oh, NoNeck just destroyed Glaukos' technicality with a technicality and elevated Wlad to super-duper ultra champion. How will the nitpickers react to THIS?

 

sorry but there are a few threads
1. Liston was injured in the Ali fight. This has been officially confirmed by several doctors

2. Liston was a relegated fighter, who had been fighting very rarely and training less for a long time. Clay visited him in casinos, not gyms. There is a lot of evidence that Liston was no longer training and was not very focused on boxing when he fought Ali

3. Liston had only 3 one-round fights in the nearly 3 years before the Clay fight. That is ridiculously few. He was not in the rhythm of the fight, not at all, he was not ready for a big fight.

4. Despite the above, Clay DID NOT OUTCLASS Liston. It was actually a good, fairly even fight that was not decided until Sonny said - enough is enough

5. Liston's career history shows that being bigger and not being overshadowed was not some magic method for Liston. Was Williams intimidated? Was Folley intimidated? Did Patterson not take the fight with Liston? You could say that Machen was intimidated and had some success. Foreman claimed that going forward was not a good idea in the fight with Sonny. To win with Sonny it was good to be afraid of him, to be careful without recklessness.

6. Statistics are ok but they should be treated with caution. At least a few of Sonny's fights without official status were much more prestigious and sportingly valuable than at least a few of Wlad's fights in which the belt is at stake. Therefore, a balance like 2-2 vs 25-2 is very misleading.

By writing this I'm not saying that Liston should be higher than Wlad but in my opinion it's much more difficult than it seems.

 

Not ranking champions of other organizations.

 

First thing, I've already said Wlad is greater, but it's straight up hypocrisy to critique Liston for fighting smaller opponents then was lyrical about how big Wlad is and how he used it to his advantage. If you can't see that, you're Stevie ****ing Wonder.

His intimidation factor did not vanish while facing Ali. Before the fight, he made Ali run away in fear, Ali said he wanted no part of Liston in 63. He also stated years later, in no uncertain terms, he was "scared to death" of Liston. And guess what, Wlad is not Ali. He isn't close to being as tough physically or mentally, and isn't anywhere near as mobile or fast.

At the end of the day, Wlad failed to do precisely what you describe against Peter and Brewster. He jabs and grabs, which works well, but he also panics. Panicking at such close range reates openings which Liston is gonna capitalise on. And he hits a lot harder than the guys who knocked Wlad out.

 

While I thought Liston would beat Wlad h2h if the Ukrainian didn't grab him to death,I thought Wlad had more names on his resume.

But Liston's two signature wins over Patterson might put him higher too,but again it's not really the same sig.win like how Duran beat Leonard etc,I dunno.

 

good post is good post

 

Then read the context that got me to start over. His questions are beside the point.

 

Well, yeah bud, that's an excuse. You are excusing Wlad's lack of WBC title with contenders rated by everyone but the WBC ratings and there's more belts. Excusing. As in saying Wlad does not need to because of these reasons.


Carnera requires none of these excuses.




The NBA went around the world establishing regional authorities until it hit world level

The WBC formed a coalition out of the remaining regional authorities that existed prior to the NBA to achieve global reach.

When the IBF and WBO split from the WBA they did not overnight regional authorities into existence, they took control over a percentage of authorities that already existed. It's a restructure.

Men rise up THESE ranks and THESE ranks alone to become world champion

Wlad avoided 1/2 the world's input on boxing and you call him dominant.


Carnera rose up and defended through all of the HW division. He was actually dominant.

 

Wow, sounds like you think Wlad avoided some amazing fighters. I wonder who these standout athletes were?

 

you explain to me how this post has any value at all. What do you see yourself as here? A fluffer?

Nah dude, you address some **** I said. I already addressed him. Do you expect me to say something different because you asked for a take 2? Bro, it's not a fight, it's not going to be a different response to the same post I already responded to. Copy/paste if you need to read it twice, idgaf.

Or to say that differently, if you want a different response you need to add or subtract something more than your feelings to this conversation.

 

Gimme like five dude. I've more notes than I am used to and mostly from this thread. Just let me get everyone responded to so no one feels ignored and I'll pop back to you.

 

You mean cross recognition?

How long has the WBC not ranked champions?

Where on the WBA or WBO's rating is Dubois?

WBA: https://www.wbaboxing.com/wba-ranking

WBO: https://www.wboboxing.com/rankings

Where on the IBF is Usyk rated?

IBF: https://www.ibf-usba-boxing.com/ratings/






When Wlad fought Haye for the WBA, where did the WBA rate Wlad at that time?

https://www.wbaboxing.com/wba-ranking-pdf/2011/WBA-Official-Ratings-May-2011.pdf


Where is he rated?





You ready to admit you don't know what you're talking about yet bud? Want more sanctioning body arguments? Maybe pique my thread on authorities before you step to me on their acts bro. You're not even close to ready for this, get back to talking about Wlad and Liston, get off the WBC. It's too loaded in my favor. That's just the truth. You know how much research you did for this, none, you got told and believed it. Look at this **** here: https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/a-small-bit-on-belts.733048/#post-23270944

I'm just saying, in terms of who is a great champion, who is a great HW, you're solid and can son me. Here, bodies, authorities, buddy, you're not even in my league is the truth.