Sonny Liston or Wladimir Klitschko who rates higher as a all time heavyweight?

In my opinion both Povetkin and Byrd are lower level greats. Povetkin was ranked for in top 10 from 2007-2021 and was still a decent threat in division close 40. With the Kiltschko's around then Joshua and Fury and Wilder when he got older it was always going to hard for Povetkin to get in a window of dominance like Patterson did before Liston ended it.

 

Povetkin and Byrd would've had a much easier time in Patterson and Liston's era, certainly.

 

Are you really so dim witted that you don't realise how a guy with power can also be a spoiler type ? Did guys like Rigondeaux not exist ? No one is downplaying Wlad's power, you'll find that most have him around the top 5 or 10 hardest punchers at HW. What literally everyone aside from you knows to be true, is that he was not a Louis, Liston or Tyson type of offensive machine.

He tried being that guy and got knocked the **** out. Hence becoming a spoilery 1-2-clinch merchant whose own damn coach needed to tell him in his best years to ''Throw some ****ing punches, we don't need another bull**** decision''. He was a safety first fighter for the vast majority of his prime years. That's not discrediting him, that's just saying that water is wet. Him KOing and breaking down a bunch of stiffs is not an indication that he was an elite offensive fighter. Merely just a very hard puncher, which he was. Most of his best opponents went the distance.

Haye went the distance. Povetkin went the distance. A prime Byrd went the distance in the first fight. Peter also went the distance in the first fight, and the version that got stopped in the 10th by Wlad got stopped by ****ing Helenius in the 9th right after. Even the likes of Wach and Ibragimov went 12, and they outright sucked. Him being afraid to let his hands go is literally the reason he lost the title to Fury, who he himself wasn't doing much of anything other than moving around and throwing a few pot shots here and there.

But I guess he KO'd a 40 year old Cruiserweight in Mormeck, low ranking guys who were ranked for all of 5 minutes like Brock, Thompson x2, Jefferson, McCline, Jackson and Brewster, old shells like Mercer and Rahman, and a bunch of unranked nobodies like Austin, Leapai, Castillo, Pianeta and Nicholson. What an offensive savant, my God.

Edit: Oh, and by the way. Highlight reels don't reveal ****. They delibaretely show fighters at their most aggressive and delibarately shy away from moments of inactivity, making guys like Wlad appear to be something they are not. And most importantly, they don't show how a guy reacts to getting hit. it's no coincidence most Wlad highlights are against awful opposition. But again you would have know this if you actually watched fights and didn't pretend to be a wannabe tough smartass.

You can make Zab Judah look like Sugar Ray Leonard in highlights, before you realise he lost to almost every competent fighter he ever faced.

 

I agree with Byrd, but whether we agree or not, most people do not hold him on the same level as Floyd.

Povetkin is a hard no. Whatever he accomplished is really mitigated by the PEDs problems. And it's very hard to be a "great" without ever having held a belt.

 

@Spreadeagle became a “near ATG” fighting 190lbers and losing to Ingo… Wlad did become an ATG (just IMO) by being the man for a decade, defending his title or “claim” against endless modern sized contenders… everyone knew he was the champ, just like when Larry had his issues. Yes I think Wlad beats 60s Ali, Ali pulled himself out of range habitually, he couldn’t pull away to counter Wlad the way he did say Liston, Cooper, Terrell or Patterson… he’d always be in hitting distance for Wlad and would always take himself out of his own striking range because of how he fought and he’d get pumped with straights all night… he’d do better in the 70s when he wasn’t so for a lack of better words no disrespect intended “non combative” Ali’s issues with Ken Norton (in regards to the jabbing game) would be amplified here…. I think Wlad is his worst match up and would likely KO him, naturally with a left a hook.

 

Look, this conversation is getting pretty heated over what's just a boxing debate. We can disagree without it turning into personal attacks.

To be clear, I never said Wlad was some unstoppable offensive monster like Tyson or Liston. What I've been saying is that he could finish guys when he stepped on the gas. Being careful doesn't mean you can't crack. Guys like Lennox, older Foreman, and even Bowe sometimes played it safe but could still wreck opponents when they opened up. Wlad was the same way.

About those fights that went the distance - there's way more to the story. Povetkin kept diving into clinches to survive after feeling Wlad's power. Haye spent the whole night backpedaling and flopping. Wach had a ridiculous chin (and we later found out he was juiced) and still got beat up for 12 rounds. Ibragimov barely tried to fight back. These weren't cases of Wlad throwing everything but the kitchen sink and failing - these were guys doing whatever they could to just make it to the final bell after feeling his power.

And you're skipping over the good fighters he did knock out - Byrd, Chagaev, Pulev, Thompson. Those weren't cans, they were legitimate contenders and champs.

About the highlights - yeah, they show a fighter's best moments, but they also show what a guy is capable of. If Wlad couldn't set up his devastating 1-2 combinations, establish range with that punishing jab, or land that powerful right hand and left hook, those highlights wouldn't exist. Every great heavyweight has some weaker names on their KO list, that's just how boxing works.

Bottom line, Wlad changed his style because he had to after those early losses, but acting like he was just a grab and jab spoiler fighter isn't giving him his due. I know you acknowledge his power, but Wlad was great at imposing his style on opponents, taking away their game, and then knocking them out with his power when the opportunity presented itself.

 

The trouble of Liston coming into the modern era is he’d be a Byrd sized guy trying to fight like a Lennox sized guy… his physicality is a key part of why he won the title he had some skills but his meal ticket was strength, size and power of which none he had in any outstanding quality just two? decades later.

 

I think you’ve said all you can, don’t get tangled up in a frustrated stated - I’m the worst for it, you have made your points well and cleared things up. I agree with you if that matters, let your points stand and don’t get rage baited into trying to clarify stupid semantics lol not saying (can’t spell his username) is doing that to you, but the fact you called Byrd etc “champs” is just inviting that one guy to say “OH but in the 70s there was only one! - Wlad was never undisputed the way the great Jess Willard was!” Etc.

 

I'm fine, I think I stated my views in a civil and reasonable way without resorting to personal attacks like others have we can agree to disagree that's the beauty of discussion we all have different views and its impossible for everyone to agree

 

Liston has a longer reach than Lennox Lewis. That is an outstanding quality for someone his size and would stand out. Hes not Rocky Marciano.

 

As a resident short tempered donkey I agree it’s the best way… I respect the hell out of @Saintpat and I once embarrassingly lost my mind over Nelson vs Fenech 2 he was right in every way, he knows boxing better then I ever will and I sat there and dragged it out like a death by 1000 cuts.

EDIT: To anyone else reading this, Maybe some lurker in 2120… don’t lose your cool, be polite, make your points and respect people we all love the sport, you might be wrong, learn more speak less.

 

Well yes but he’s also 6ft-ish and 210-215lbs… he’s a small guy, his reach is impressive not what it says on the tin IMO but irrelevant anyway, his style didn’t require a long reach he chugged ahead in a stalking sort of way, I don’t think his style relied on a long reach at all and he didn’t fight like someone who’d be “small” today Byrd managed because Byrd wasn’t slow or trying to overpower guys the way Liston did, Liston was kinda lumbering and had a sort of “old school” overweight size, big for his time and reasonably skilled but his meal ticket (strength, size and power) wouldn’t overly impress me at 200lbs today… if he started off in todays environment he’d be cut up at about 190-200lbs and be fighting at 175lbs a Beterbiev style fighter… OR his style would need to adapt to his place at heavyweight, he’d need to look like a different guy to work today, he’d had the talent but as he was it couldn’t work.

 

You must think real low of guys like Marciano, who was even smaller than Patterson, yet makes nearly every top ten list.

 

That’s very kind of you to say, but I’m as apt to be wrong as right about anything (boxing or otherwise). I probably nicked myself a few times in our exchanges, haha.

But let me say this: I 100% respect you and your opinions (when we agree and when we don’t) and I’m glad you’re here. This is a better place for it.

And as for any advice I have to posters, when I actually put the ignore function to good use my experience here got better. A few people got under my skin and I dropped them from my feed and moved on. (Not you @Journeyman92 btw). If it worked for me, it can work for you.

I’m going to find me a good fight to sit down with tonight and enjoy this great sport. I hope everyone else can find a time to do the same.