Sonny Liston or Wladimir Klitschko who rates higher as a all time heavyweight?

Could you kindly google translate that?

 

No mention. Just "Cut Mouth" to go with his manager in the other article saying he had bleeding gums.

https://gahistoricnewspapers.galileo.usg.edu/lccn/sn84020323/1958-08-16/ed-1/seq-8/

 

I gotcha fam:
Native American perspective: Christian settlers took our lands. Though our languages are nearly gone, our expressions and speech patterns remain. My occasional use of Tsalagi (Cherokee) words isn't because English isn't my first language - it's cultural, similar to Scottish-English dialects. I acknowledge I have an unusual background for a boxing fan.

 

A few days ago this thread was all but wrapped up in a sort of consensus:
- Wlad has the better resume as a basis to claim a higher place in the ATG ranking.
- Sonny was the better fighter and H2H had the advantage.

I am gone for the weekend, come back and the thread has derailed.
Now I wonder when and how Wlad became the GOAT HW and all that...

 

I think you should reread his post….

 

He was always the GOAT heavyweight, but was first formally recognized as having ascended to that role by acclamation in March of the year 2025, in this very thread. You have been a part of history.

 

I think it mostly became a H2H debate at a certain point and comparing their qualities and one person made a whole thing about valuing undisputed over anything else but then slinked into the background when most people questioned the validity of his criteria

 

Yeah no. . If he couldn't keep slow as a sloth Sam Peter off him then he simply doesn't have an ATG jab.

Second raters like Pinky Thomas and Busta Douglas had a jab than Wladdy.

 

No, Wlad has one of the best jabs in heavyweight history. That Sam Peter fight you mentioned was early in his development with Emanuel Steward - his jab got significantly better later on in his career. Even in that fight, Wlad still won every round besides the ones he got knocked down in because of back of the head shots. After developing more under Steward his jab became his most dominant weapon throughout his championship reign.

Comparing him to Pinklon Thomas and Buster Douglas is misleading - and suggesting they would have had similar success against Wlad's competition is pure speculation with no evidence to support it. Thomas and Douglas both had opportunities during their careers and couldn't sustain championship-level success. Meanwhile, Wlad dominated all styles of fighters for over a decade.

 

Someone getting seven teeth knocked out in a boxing match is exceptional to the point that it seems wildly implausible baring something strange like someone failing to put in a mouth piece the entire fight.

Too my knowledge there are no allegations of Foreman, Tyson, Lewis ever doing anything like that.

 

I don't have a dog in this race. There are some good arguments on both sides.

But one thing I find strange is that Holmes has been getting absolutely blasted on this forum for not unifying/missing some key names in his era/not avenging some losses/etc.

Yet when Wladmir has some of the same issues with his resume as Holmes, there are excuses.

 

Is knocking out teeth even a good indication that you have top-end power?

Several heavyweights from the early days of bad mouthguards, brutal refereeing and small gloves have stories about the damage they inflicted on their opponents. Marciano had a lot of them, which (IIRC) started getting questioned in the same way Liston's is now. Louis is supposed to have "sheared off teeth at the gums" according to a forum story that I assume had a source behind it, since people kept repeating it. And Louis has other stories like that. Norton broke Ali's jaw. People broke ribs; damaged arms. Fitzsimmons drove Jeffries's lip through his teeth so hard somebody needed to cut it free. And so on. Lots of stories; some of them even true. Carnera, Baer, and Fitzsimmons 100% verifiably killed people.

But just because you can sometimes damage the human body with fists, it doesn't mean that you're a monstrous and unparalleled puncher.

 

The difference is that Wlad sought to unify and never ducked any contenders, Holmes is well known to have ducking multiple contenders and cherry picked easier opponents as he got older

 

I don't know.

What I do know is often answers are weak. I mean one of the fellas is trying to claim cross recognition of the bodies prevents unifications both while vacant and held. ... It's a strong case-in-point as to the backing of these ideas being empty.

That said there's obvious flaws in giving the bodies total narrative over championship history. The boys have done well to dig those out of me as well. George asked about lineal and forced me to admit due to inclusion or that lack there of I don't even personally recognize Dempsey as a world champion and see him more as a regional/racial champion. Because, IMO, which is subjective of course, to claim Jack Dempsey is a world champion is to uphold old timey racist propaganda we all know is not the truth of the situation.

Jack of course being a example of a Pre-Louis, Undisputed, HW champion with some defenses. Primo I gave props to here, and I was propagandist about it too. As long as we're talking about Undisputed VS Unified VS Single Strap and in the context of the conversation Primo and Wlad are vehicles for the title discussion then I will not speak to how colorline or globalism effect my personal ratings. ... Simply because it tends to muddy the convo. I'd be arguing with Dempsey fans about racism while arguing with Wlad fans about titles. Bit much. But the real truth is I really struggle to see guys before Louis as world HW champions. HW champions sure, but not world.

I am not prepared to give bodies total narrative over history or to argue that Sam Langford is actually a world champion because a sanctioning body or five crowned him as such.

That said, I'll not offer the flaws to my argument unpressed and I would not regard any post prior as asking anything like a tough question.


As to ring/tbrb ratings and outcomes. That's an easy thing to do when you write you ratings after the fact. Anyone of us can make a chronologically accurate list of successful boxers in order of success.