Sonny Liston or Wladimir Klitschko who rates higher as a all time heavyweight?

Your 'spongy canvas conspiracy' claims fall apart under scrutiny. The only documented case is the Fury fight, where there was indeed a canvas dispute that was resolved before the fight. However:

1. The canvas wasn't 'illegal' - no boxing authority ever ruled it violated regulations
2. There's no verified video of Lennox Lewis specifically 'calling out' an illegal canvas in the way you suggest
3. In the Pulev fight, there's no clear visual evidence or documented complaints about excessive 'sinking' that affected the outcome
4. Johnny Nelson is a pundit, not an official boxing expert, and he's been known to exaggerate things for effect - there's no reason to take his comments as definitive proof without actual evidence

These are exaggerations that undermine your argument. Champions having preferences for ring conditions is standard in boxing - Ali, Holmes, and Lewis all had home-field advantages and there's 0 evidence of anything illegal like you claim.

Regarding clinching - great jabbers throughout history have clinched when needed. Holmes clinched against aggressive fighters or when in trouble. Ali relied heavily on clinching in his later career. Lewis clinched throughout the Holyfield fights. It's a legitimate part of heavyweight boxing.

You're creating an impossible standard that only Wlad has to meet - how many great jabbers did Holmes out-jab to prove his jab was great? How many did Lewis out-jab? None - because great jabbers rarely fight other great jabbers. They prove their jabs against the contenders of their era, exactly as Wlad did.

Wlad's jab was the foundation of his 11-year undefeated run and 18 title defenses. That doesn't happen with a mediocre jab.

 

The fundamental issue with your comparison is that you're applying different standards. Wlad had a legitimate reason not to go for unification against his brother as you acknowledge and unified all other titles. Holmes didn't have any such reason to avoid unification with his contemporaries, which is why people are more critical of Holmes for it.

Regarding dominance - yes, Holmes won every round besides knockdown rounds against Shavers and Snipes, but Wlad did the exact same against Peters in their first fight. And in their rematch, Wlad knocked Peters out.

Holding has always been a part of boxing and plenty of greats like Ali and Lewis have used it, so I don't think taking points away from Wlad for using it holds much water unless you're willing to do the same for any great fighter who used it extensively.

While Wlad did get stopped, all of that was before his reign and before he really developed his style, while Holmes had multiple close fights during his reign that he arguably lost. So it really goes down to what you value more: domination with early losses or no early losses but a less dominant reign. Personally, I think the former is much more impressive.

 

Just so you don't find yourself wasting your time, take a look at his post history about the Klitschkos. You are not going to persuade this person.

 

Fair he does seem to hold a visceral hatred for them for some reason lol. Which is weird to me you can dislike them but to hate them at that level just for being "boring"? Seems weird

 

This is your third time repeating yourself. I have heard you loud and clear. No one said him not wanting to fight his brother is bogus. Again, the point is if Liston did something Wlad didn't (undisputed) you can't take that away from Liston when doing a side by comparison of their careers. Wladmir DIDN'T do it, so that's a point FOR Liston regardless of why Wladmir didn't go for undisputed, legitimate excuse or not.

That is all. I'm no longer going back and forth on such an obvious fact.

 

I couldn't help myself and made a meme

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I apologize for the confusion. I thought you were comparing Holmes and Wlad rather than Wlad and Liston, hence my repeating points about Holmes.

I just don't personally value "undisputed" as much as some people do. I value dominance and overall reign more, which is why I rank both Wlad and Holmes higher than Liston despite neither being undisputed technically.

"Undisputed" often seems like a somewhat meaningless label at the end of the day. Despite not being undisputed, I don't think anyone can argue that Wlad and Holmes weren't the best fighters of their respective eras. Both dominated for extended periods and beat everyone put in front of them during their prime championship years.

 

1. What does that have to do with S.F.A?

2. Fluoride was added to public water supplies in '45.

 

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Wtf is SFA?

If you drink water with fluoride for a few years, it's not the same as growing up on it. Ask your grandma if she got cavities.

 

Sweet F*** All. It's an Ausi thing

My God you just can't admit when you're wrong can you?

 

"New York City has fluoridated its tap water since 1965, when Mayor Eric Adams was 5 years old. "

 

Just keep changing the goal posts when you're backed into a corner. I've noticed it's been a recurring theme with you.

 

A cop car is parked on the street and i say its white and blue. You say - no its pink. Thats basically how you debate. Just deny everything. deny deny deny. You insist Wlad was undisputed so you have no issue peddling false narratives

This is obviously your first time hearing about the ring canvas debacle. You have no prior knowledge about how scandalous it was. You have no prior knowledge of Lennox Lewis being there when it was torn up. You have no prior knowledge of how Nelson documented Wlads ring canvas during fight weeks. Therefore you have no qualms whatsoever denying it ever happened. Just because YOU were unaware of it.
You did not follow this man career in real time. You followed him after his career it finished.

Larry Holms beat Norton who had an excellent jab. He produced jabbing clinics against Shavers.

Lewis pasted Vitali Klitschko with the jab. Name me one single fighter Wlad beat that was better than Vitali.
Lewis shut Tua , Briggs and Roddock completely out with the jab.

3rd time asking. What good jabber did Wlad ever out jab. ??

I previously pointed out how he refused to have a jab battle with Pulev who was probably the best jabber on his resume. Instead he opted for a wrestling match.

Incorrect. It was constant bending of the rules to allow him overcome two major weakness.


- Chin , stamina , inside fighting lack of - - Conserving energy , protecting the chin and nullifying inside work was achieved by resting his body over his opponents back. The images bellow depict this strategy.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/06/30/article-2010040-0CCE213000000578-927_634x422.jpg

https://media.gettyimages.com/id/14...=3leeXxZFab1QpISiUP2DqNgOoox5usgjFMIi2mWLO_Y=

https://cdn.prod.www.spiegel.de/ima...669_w520_r1.440922190201729_fpx34.7_fpy50.jpg

- Inability to keep opponents on the outside with the jab - - clipping from news media bellow will explain

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