Sonny Liston or Wladimir Klitschko who rates higher as a all time heavyweight?

You post this while shamelessly promoting Wlads win over an inactive , half blind and shot to pieces Brewster in the rematch.

That fight is as valid as Whytes rematch against Povetkin. Its YOU who is selective and cherry picking while dismissing and denying reality.

If you deny the well known canvas incident you will deny anything and everything in order to make an argument.

Enough talking. Post the best example Wlads jabbing ability . Actually show me instead of telling me.

Here's another dose of harsh reality of another fighter showing better use of the jab against a shared opponent.

When you get into round 2 , 3 and 4.. Thats when Takam used far better distance control than Wlad.

Wlad in the first minute of round one clinched more times than Takam did all fight.

Takam swept whole rounds from Povetkin with jab and movement. I don't want hear excuses. He did what Wlad could not do which is keep povetkin off him wit the jab.
Takam could have won that if he was allowed to hold Povetkin every 10 seconds like Wlad did

We know know Pov was juiced to the gills in this fight. Hence the late surge. As far as im aware that fight is going to ruled a NC.

Wlad fought a pov before going on a ped enchanted tear. Wlad fought the same Pov who was gping life and death with MarcoHuck.

AJ fought a Pov who had benefited from peds. And he still never needed a single clinch or dirty tactic to dismantle him.

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I include Maher and Delaney!

I'm not sure why lineal deviations, especially those that eventually unified with the generally accepted line. Maher being a champion hurts no one and Fitzs won a HW title fight more than his stats are often cited. Sharkey being a champion is like...yes please, sure, np, and while I'm at it Choy, not Root, for LHW origins. just saying.

 

It's clear at this point that we're not going to find common ground on Wlad. Your responses consistently reveal what appears to be a visceral dislike of Klitschko rather than an objective assessment of his career.

You dismiss every success while amplifying every struggle. You ignore the context of his losses and development as a fighter. You refuse to acknowledge his decade-plus of heavyweight dominance because you personally dislike his style.

The way you frame everything - "mauling," "fouling," "sneaking" punches - shows this isn't about boxing analysis for you, it's about justifying your personal dislike of a fighter who dominated the division for years.

You claim to be "presenting facts" but you're actually presenting carefully selected moments designed to paint the worst possible picture of a fighter who knocked out 53 opponents, defended world titles 18 times, and reigned as champion for over a decade.

I've tried to have a reasonable discussion about Wlad's strengths and weaknesses, acknowledging both his skills and limitations. But it's impossible to have that conversation when every point is met with more contempt rather than objective analysis.

Let's agree to disagree. Boxing debates should be passionate but also fair, and I don't think that's possible here given your apparent bias against Klitschko.

 

Kinda curious do you have a top ten heavyweight list? Interested in how you evaluate them based on your own criteria all good if you're not interested in sharing or don't have a concrete list just wondering.

 

Ok post the tape showing Wlads beat jabbing performance then we'll leave it at that

 

Are you seriously suggesting that Liston knocking out 7 of Bethea's teeth is fiction,a made-up story ?
Why didn't Bethea completely deny this happened if this was the case.What on earth would be the point of anybody making up such a story ? What on earth would be their motivation ?

 

Do you know of any occasions where he was asked, and given the opportunity to deny it?

 

Not specifically.It just seems so unlikely that this wouldn't have been refuted by any sources
close to the fighter if it was untrue.

 

It generally between Ali and Louis depending on what you value Ali had better wins Louis had a better reign

 

I think for most historical claims, it can be misleading to assume that just because a denial hasn't come down to us, it means the person agreed that something happened.

It would be totally different if we knew he was in a situation where it would've made sense to deny the story, and he didn't do it. But it sounds like we don't have that. How much material about the fight do we even have from him? Interviews, autobiography, footage, etc.? Are we even sure that he didn't deny it?

 

You do make some fair points Cross,but the burden of proof surely rests on proving this didn't
happen.
The ref did seem to be having quite an animated discussion with Bethea's team and seemed to
be refering to Bethea's gumshield.This would indicate that the gumshield contained Bethea's
dislodged teeth.

 

Kudos on interpreting the video evidence.

Why would the burden of proof rest with the people trying to disprove the story, though? Surely it would usually work the other way around?

 

Asking you to produce footage is where you hit a brink wall.

I've cited articles from news publications, posted pictorial and video evidence, factual data and computer box statistics.
Then all you can can call me is a hater. That's the go-to for someone who has no rebuttal. It goes without saying that I'm not a fan of Wlad but I'm not an irrational hater. I've justified every claim with facts. You on the other hand called the ring canvas scandal a conspiracy, something that never happened. An outright lie.
When it gets down to brass tacs like requesting footage you go running. That speaks volumes.

 

I can write one based on a criteria given to me and do it in earnest but if I am being asked for a honest representation of greatness as I see it I personally wouldn't even rate like how you are used to seeing ratings. Usually when I participate in those sort of thread i'll give it some kind of qualifier like "If you ask me tomorrow I may give you a different list entirely"

A single definitive best ever?

I don't really believe human achievement works that way and every single instance in which it does I would find argument.

For example, I would not tell you Marciano is the GOAT HW but I would tell you he is a GOAT candidate based on his stats alone. You may or someone else certainly will inform me of how easy it is to go 49-0 against easy comp, despite that being mathematically and historically untrue. One will tell me a 185 pounder can't hit harder than 240s despite the 925 ft-lbs. I'll get told all sorts of things

Joe Louis is like a text book, his efficiency of movement is a marvel, he has everything, titles, fans, time, resume, there's nothing Joe louis lacks, except if you are to claim to me you really believe Joe measures anywhere near 925ft-lbs what you're really telling me is you don't have a strong handle on projectile physics.

Joe Louis is also a GOAT candidate. 1, 2, no, there's no one higher, but, many equal, yet, different.

If you really like power I can see why you'd favor Marciano.

If you really like form I can see why you favor Louis.

Why a Louis favoritor can not see from a Marciano-stan's perspective and vice versa, I do not know. I am not bold enough to say one beats the other.

People say things like "On paper" then proceed to tell you about their opinions. 925 is not an opinion. Most defenses is not an opinion. On paper it's an Olympian God vs a Marvel Superhero, an unstoppable force vs immoveable object, a dinosaur vs a kaiju

And that is just how a power stats vs longevity stat of TWO ATGs can get hella complicated and beyond the means of human comprehension. There's at least 100 men worth mention at HW. At least 100.


I go for categories. Like GOAT level. There is no GOAT but both Greb and Mayweather p4p GOATs. IMO.



edit- I did notice all my errors. I think i fixed them but if I didn't my bad. Kids keep me tired.