Sonny Liston or Wladimir Klitschko who rates higher as a all time heavyweight?

What benefit would there be for a manager to joke about their fighter losing multiple teeth? If people took it seriously, Bethea's stock would plummet even further. It makes even less sense if the trainer was seen protesting the stoppage and then they later admit that he lost teeth. That would make his team look like a bunch of reckless psychopaths who don't care about their fighter's health at worst, or jokesters who can't be taken seriously at best.

The burden of proof is on him to show that A) no teeth were dislodged and B) the team was lying/joking. The argument would make more sense if it was someone from Liston's team claiming the teeth were knocked out because they'd be biased and it would become easier to doubt.

Considering multiple boxers have knocked out opponents teeth before (such as Joe Louis), and the horrific damage Liston did to Wepner's face, I'm not sure what's so shocking or unbelievable about this.

 

No sir,

1 half-swording exists for a reason; physics.

2 It takes nothing away from George to use the proper term to describe his energy.

Let me show you:

Foreman popped Morrison's eyeball out of it's socket with a jab.

Foreman hit Morrison with such force it forced Morrison's eye out of its socket

Foreman hit Morrison with so much power it knocked Morrison's eye out of its socket

These are all true bu not equally. The original I swiped from your quote is as true as possible, it's also vague and going out of its way to avoid any word that would describe the energy type.

The second is correct and slightly more detailed

The third is only a true statement if power is being used colloquially or semantically. Not scientifically.


Why you should care is simple; if energy was just power, or, "power is power" then we wouldn't have the terms force, energy, and work to describe the differences in the physics. Is it sweet science or not? Do you want to know the differences in how KO artist operate or don't you?


There is Power, there is Force, there is also Frequency and I do not mean how often though that might help you get there. These fundamentals of physics are also fundamentals of the sword play that created boxing and of course nothing more core to the sport.


The postures change, the positioning, or gapping if you like, changes, defense and aggression over time change places in terms of number of practitioners, equipment, rules, who is in charge and what that authority type looks like, races, cultures, so much I couldn't possibly off the cuff a full and complete list of changes that take place in boxing BUT and it's a big but that's why it's capped out rather than italics but the play of styles never does.



One thing you wouldn't say to me is Rocky boxes like Foreman or Foreman boxes like Rocky. Likewise, you would not say Rocky looks like Foreman or vice versa. These men who share one thing, the ability to hurt men, did not achieve the pain they caused the same way. You know this. You absolutely know Marciano is smaller and fights smaller out of a crouch.

Why should you find the physics of Foreman's pain being different than but relative to the physics of Marciano's anything but expected?

I didn't ever say who hurts men most or caused most damage or unleashed more energy. I described the type of energy found in their punches.

 

I have trouble telling them apart.

 

No, if you're going to claim something happened in a fight, the burden of proof is to show that it did happen in the fight.

Cooper floored Clay, you can watch the film. Look at the still pictures.
Clay cut Cooper and stopped him. Want to see it? Watch the film. Look at the still pictures.

There was a long time delay between the fourth and fifth rounds of Clay-Cooper to replace the glove. Want to see it? You can't. It never happened. But people claimed it did for a half century. Watching the full film, you can see it never happened.

You're not going to see a long delay on the film if a long delay never happened.

Just like you're not going to see practically all of Bethea's teeth knocked out in the film of the Liston-Bethea fight ... BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED.

If you're going to claim Liston knocked out Bethea's teeth, then the film should show it.

Want to see it? Watch the film. It's not there.
Look at the still pictures. No missing teeth.
Um, watch the film again. Nothing to see.
Listen to the live commentary. Nobody says "OH MY GOD, ALL HIS TEETH ARE KNOCKED OUT."

Just the fighter and his team arguing about the stoppage and claiming the ref was in the bag. And a week later, the team changes it's story, and claims when he said the ref was in the bag that what he meant was Liston bagged him early. (That's sarcasm.)

Today, Hall of Fame boxing writers are saying Liston knocked out 16 of Bethea's teeth and Bethea was on the canvas motionless.

"He needed only 69 seconds of the first round to put a decent journeyman, Wayne Bethea, down and motionless, in the process dislodging 16 of Bethea’s teeth."

https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/featured-b...ate-of-sonny-liston-was-seemingly-preordained

That's half of all his teeth. Watch the film. No teeth are knocked out. Bethea's not motionless on the canvas. He's standing up arguing with the ref. The referee doesn't even look at his mouthpiece when he removes it and stops the fight. Countless articles say the ref saw all these teeth in the mouthpiece, and that's why he stopped it.

Utter nonsense. On the film, the ref takes out the mouthpiece and is waving it around while everyone is arguing with him.

I know myths die hard, especially in the classic forum. But this myth about Bethea's teeth is comical, and no physical proof exists that it ever happened.

On the contrary, the film of the fight CONTRADICTS the myth. The actual film proves my point. Not the myth. The initial post-fight reports prove my point. Not the myth.

The fact that everyone's stories kept changing after that (and continue to change to this day) doesn't change what we see on video of the live broadcast, which is that the myth is not true.

Just like the live broadcast of Clay-Cooper contradicted the myth and proved the glove delay wasn't true, either, regardless of how many times "the myth" was repeated.

 

No, it's on you. His own team said it happened and we have no reason to believe they lied other than your conspiracy theory.

By your logic, Ali didn't pee blood after the Chuvalo fight unless we get a clear, HD 1080p footage of Ali's member urinating blood into the toilet. Any doctors or nurses confirming it happened putting their careers on the line do not count since they can simply be paid off.

This is you right now:

This content is protected

 

Wow this discussion hasn't died yet.

 

It's not a conspiracy theory. Watch the film of the fight.

His teeth aren't knocked out. It didn't happen. I never saw so many people just refuse to believe their own eyes.

The story changed later. It's still changing. It's up to 16 teeth now..And Bethea was toothless and motionless on the floor.

Ali's own people lied about the delay In the Cooper fight? Why did they do that? It didn't help Ali to tell that story, but it was repeated by his trainer for decades.

It isn't on the film of the fight. The broadcasters never mentioned it. People sitting feet away would have noticed 7 to 16 teeth being knocked out of his head.

The conspiracy is there is film of the fight, and you still believe the lie.

 

Anything that goes against the official report is a conspiracy. No one said "Liston hit Bathea and all his teeth flew 30 feet into the air", only that some of his teeth were knocked out. That could mean they were dislodged, loosened, were stuck in his mouthpiece, etc. It doesn't suggest some comedic, over the top gory scene.

By all means, continue pushing your conspiracy with zero evidence.

 

It's what happens when people are intellectually dishonest.

 

This thread has devolved into the proverbial dog chasing its tail.

Me thinks a sort of consensus was reached something like 30 pages ago: Wlad has the best resume, Sonny was better H2H. Easy, peachy.

But whatever, lets go all the way to 50 pages, 100 pages and beyond!!!!!!

 

Still disagree with that but w/e at this point thread has taken a life of its own

 

Jeez, I used to speak to this old geezer down the battle cruiser who had very few teeth and he used to claim they'd been knocked out by Sonny Liston...we all thought he was just another bullshitting old timer, but now I'm starting to doubt myself. He used to come in with an old fella called George who claimed he'd killed a dragon and a guy in a white sparkly jump suit called Elvis....

 

wlad would have crumpled him

 

Lmao I thought I was losing my mind reading comments like these.

Burden of proof would clearly be on those trying to disprove Bethea's manager's claim. I thought it was common sense tbh.

 

How did you do that?