(PRIME) Oleksandr Usyk vs. (PRIME) Joe Frazier

Funny to see how even this thread is.

It'll always be Joe to me, but Usyk's stamina is a huge asset.

 

I agree that this sort of thing makes a huge difference.

The way that makes more sense to me is to use Frazier as he actually existed. Just because I have no idea how much better a modern trained Frazier would be. There's no film of Modern Frazier. All we've got is film of Old Timey Frazier.

Now, is this fair to Frazier? Definitely not if this was a real fight. But since it's only an imaginary one where we're asking, "Who would've won?", I've made my peace with it, because it's the only answer I've got.

 

Frazier is far more happy to load step (load your right foot, then move forward rapidly. Foreman and Norton were another fighters doing this, sometimes called dragging the right foot).

His defense and how he turns it into offense dwarfs Joshua. Absolutely dwarfs. And he isn't lacking in power—in FotC he hurt post-exile Ali like hardly anybody ever did when he wasn't a walking corpse. Vicious body puncher. Vicious and accurate.

 

The right hand may not be Usyk's primary vulnerability, but it's certainly been an effective weapon against him, as Joshua demonstrated in their rematch. Only Fury had success with uppercuts against Usyk, and those were counter uppercuts while Usyk was walking into range, a specific scenario, not a general vulnerability.

Yes, Chisora landed some left hooks on Usyk's guard, but landing on the guard isn't the same as landing clean, impactful shots. The issue isn't that left hooks aren't good against southpaws in theory, it's that Usyk specifically defends well against them, particularly compared to Ali who was famously vulnerable to Frazier's hook. Usyk is a master of handfighting and takes away his opponents' lead hand, which is why left hooks aren't great tools against him and I can't think of any fighter who had success with a left hook against him.

Regarding Briedis, he found success primarily through well-timed counters, not through relentless pressure. That's a completely different approach than Frazier's. And while Frazier's power might be comparable to Briedis, he lacks Briedis' technical countering ability that made those moments of success possible.

Frazier's crouching style and body punching would be challenging, but Usyk has shown exceptional adaptability against various styles. Without the size advantage that Chisora and Joshua used to occasionally back Usyk up, Frazier would struggle to consistently get inside against Usyk's footwork and distance management, while constantly taking Usyk's shots since his defense was never the best. Usyk hits hard enough to stun super heavyweights, which is more than enough to get Frazier's attention.

 

Frazier's load step was effective in his era, but it wouldn't be effective against Usyk because of his speed, footwork, control of distance, and good defense. The comparison to Joshua misses the mark—I wasn't comparing their defensive abilities, but highlighting how even AJ's significant size and power advantages weren't enough to decisively trouble Usyk.

Regarding Frazier hurting Ali, that wasn't a single moment but the accumulation of left hooks throughout the fight that gradually wore Ali down. The difference is Usyk simply isn't vulnerable to left hooks the way Ali was. Usyk's handfighting, defensive positioning, and footwork make him far less susceptible to Frazier's signature weapon.

Frazier was indeed a vicious body puncher, but landing those shots requires getting inside consistently. Against Usyk, who controls space better than anyone Frazier ever faced, that would be very difficult.

Without the ability to land his bread-and-butter punch, Frazier would face serious problems while eating clean counters from a fighter who's stunned men 40+ pounds heavier I don't see him able able to deal with that.

 

This is a fight where both guys can win. Chisora is like a bigger, way shittier version of Frazier and he gave a decent account of himself vs Usyk.

Usyk has also looked worse vs smaller opponents who were quick, than bigger ones.

 

Frazier doesn't need the size advantage here to prosecute the fight and get into good positions which is what you're seemingly convinced of. Usyk couldn’t put aj down once in 24 rounds.

 

Size isn't the only factor, but it certainly helps when trying to back up Usyk. Even fighters with significant size advantages struggled to consistently trap him. Frazier would face an even steeper challenge without that advantage.

Regarding power: Usyk hurt Joshua multiple times, hurt and almost stopped Fury, and actually stopped Dubois. His power is proven at the highest level against much bigger men than Frazier.

The fundamental issue remains: Frazier's entire offensive strategy revolves around landing the left hook to close distance and then working on the inside. Usyk's handfighting to nullify lead hands and superior footwork would make Frazier's path to victory exceptionally difficult.

Unlike Ali who often sat on the ropes, Usyk would keep turning Frazier, forcing him to reset constantly while picking him apart from the outside. That's a rough matchup for Frazier's style.

 

Fury was put down by Cunningham and wobbled. Usyk couldn’t kd aj, Dubois dropped him with the first right hand he landed. He has enough power for most to respect him, but he isn't a big puncher. Never was, npot even at cruiserweight where he was bigger than most. Always volume

 

When did Ali sit on the ropes and let Frazier outwork him? Not how I remember their fights, particularly FOC.

 

Round 7, Round 8, take your pick he did it plenty of times throughout the fight I can send you the moments if you want

 

He has enough power to hurt every opponent he has faced at heavyweight, all of whom were significantly bigger than him. Based on that alone, I'd say he has more than enough to trouble Frazier

 

Sorry man, my misunderstanding, I thought you were suggesting Ali simply lay on the ropes, but you meant on occasion. No worries, that was always part of his game as he became less of a moving target, and he certainly didn't just lie and let fighters have their way, he was a consumate in fighter, lovely short cuffing hooks, uppercuts and control of his opponents shoulders and arms at time to make them expenditure more energy and lessening the impact. Loved watching him against Foreman. People make out he lay back and simply let George tire himself, but the reality is he battered George from the ropes.

 

Usyk is at his best when he can dictate range and set traps for his opponents. Against Frazier he'd have to fight for every inch and be forced into exchanges he doesn't want. We saw against Chisora that he kind of unravels a bit when that happens and Frazier was much fitter AND more skilled than him. Unless Usyk became a master clincher overnight I think it would be a very tough fight for him.