(PRIME) Oleksandr Usyk vs. (PRIME) Joe Frazier

Load stepping is not a technique unique to Frazier's era, and if one lists some vague characteristics Usyk displays to prove he would stay away from Frazier, one the coin flip one can list some attributes of Joe to prove otherwise, e.g Frazier is pushing forward too fast whilst keeping his offensive momentum with bobs, weaves, and elbow flips, sprinkling it all with clever, Eddie Futch-drilled ring cutting. Granted, it's a fantasy debate, so words is all we have.

Still, Joshua's size is not merely an advantage. It's a liability as well. Frazier being less of a target, more elusive, and much faster than Joshua is an attribute and puzzle to be solved by Usyk. Fighting short is a style; one that can be extremely troublesome with all the level changes, body punching, and limited target exposure. Prime Frazier was astonishingly hard to land a jab on, per the Ring research, and that was against the likes of Ellis, Quarry, or Ali, all with great handspeed and more nimble due to a more Cruiserweight/Light-Heavyweight stature in the former two cases.

George Chuvalo put it nicely: Best defense: Joe Frazier, believe it or not. He was very hard to hit and bobbing and weaving was natural to him. He is recognized as a great fighter, but not many people compliment Joe on his defense. The uppercut was the only shot he was really susceptible to, as we seen against George Foreman. Joe was excellent at avoiding straight punches, which was the reason he gave Ali so much trouble in the first fight. He slipped the punches and closed the gap.

Frazier faced plenty of immensely cute boxers like Ali and the ever-underrated, ever-elite Jimmy Ellis. His only Kryptonite turned out to be the meteoric forward force of Foreman.

And the push to make a left hook ineffective against a lefty does not align with the reality of the situation: southpaw stance puts your side closers to the left hook. A dedicated enough body puncher can actually fire off a lead hook more comfortably against a southpaw.

 

I’ve always found the forum to be the exact opposite of those two things. Usyk boxes Fraizers ears off

 

Chisora fights quite a bit differently than Frazier. His main weapon is his right, Frazier's main was his left. Notoriously the southpaw killer is the right. Also worth pointing out chisora troubled Usyk some partially due to his huge weight advantage. Usyk would have an equally huge weight advantage over Frazier

 

Not going to argue with anyone who wants to give Usyk the edge in this, but in terms of size and level, the Ali that Frazier beat in the FOTC was 6'3" and 215 lbs. Usyk has a nearly identical height and reach to Ali and has fought in the low 220s in most of his heavyweight fights.

So, it's not like he'd have any otherworldly size advantage compared to what Frazier has dealt with.

 

I think it’s also important to note that Chisora threw far less power punches than Joe which could also affect how Usyk handles his relentlessness and workrate

 

Frazier’s load step works best against opponents with predictable foot placement and limited lateral movement. The issue isn’t just that Usyk "stays away"—it’s that he actively manipulates distance, changes angles mid-exchange, and denies opponents the ability to build momentum. All of these elements would make Frazier’s usual bag of tricks far less effective, preventing him from imposing his game.

Every fighter presents a unique challenge, but solving a bigger, stronger opponent with every physical advantage (height, reach, weight, power) is a more difficult task than dealing with a smaller opponent whose style can be negated with superior footwork and movement, both of which Usyk excels at. Frazier was hard to land on, but not impossible. Ali, Ellis, and Quarry all landed their shots when needed, particularly Ali, who consistently found Frazier with jabs and straights. The difference is that none of them had the power to trouble him, so he could afford to walk through their punches to deliver his own. That approach wouldn’t work against Usyk, who wouldn't let Frazier close the gap without paying a price, before circling away to reset.

The claim that Frazier was "excellent at avoiding straight punches" doesn’t hold up when you watch the fights. Ali hit Frazier with a lot of straight shots—it’s just that Frazier's tenacity allowed him to walk through them, wear Ali down, and take over late in their first fight. That strategy wouldn’t work against Usyk, who is far better at circling out of danger and is not vulnerable to the left hook the way Ali was.

And let’s be real, who has ever had success against Usyk with a left hook? The fighters who found openings against him did so with right hands, body work or in Fury's case counter uppercuts when Usyk was closing distance, not lead hooks. Frazier’s signature punch simply doesn’t match up well against a fighter like Usyk, for all the reasons I outlined.

 

Yes. I think some of that might be Frazier's physical issue with throwing a jab with his left arm.

 

if the very best version of Frazier could beat ‘71 Ali, he could beat Usyk.

problem is that version of Frazier only really showed up once, fueled by raged and anger. He wouldn’t have felt that way about Usyk, who would never have said any of the things that Ali did.

so it would be a great fight and who knows, but FOTC Frazier wouldn’t be the guy fighting.

 

But only Fury was dropped. You have to assume they all have better chins than Frazier due to size. That's a stretch

 

Frazier had a pretty good right to the body as well.

That said, good post.

 

Dubois was also dropped by Usyk, and he’s shown a solid chin in his fights. But beyond that, size does correlate with punch resistance, heavier fighters can generally absorb more damage. That’s why we don’t see featherweights walking through heavyweight punches.

Of course, that doesn’t mean bigger fighters can’t get knocked out, punch resistance is still individual. But assuming a 205-lb fighter takes punishment better than elite modern heavyweights who are 230-270 lbs is the real stretch here. Usyk has landed clean on bigger, more durable opponents, and they’ve def felt his power. There’s no reason to believe Frazier, who was dropped and hurt multiple times in his career, would fare better.

 

Frazier knocks him out

 

Put a different way: Usyk's power hurt multiple elite heavyweights who had 40+ pounds on Frazier. Seems unlikely Usyk's best punches would just bounce off Smokin' Joe.

A lot of it depends on how much someone is trying to prove. Is Usyk going to blast Joe to the canvas like Foreman did? No. And I don't think @themaster458 is saying that, either. Could Usyk hurt Frazier? Definitely. He stopped Dubois, came close to stopping Fury, etc.

Frazier won't just bulldoze Usyk like he did Ellis. When Ali came back and fought Ellis, Ellis looked like a child fighting his older brother. Usyk is about Ali's size; maybe a smidgen larger. And Usyk beat contenders much bigger than either Ali or Frazier ever had to face.

 

But that's not what I'm arguing against. I have already said he could hurt Frazier, I don't see Frazier being hurt as a real deterrence to his pressure. I dont see Usyks power being "more than enough" to make him cautious enough to get picked apart down the stretch and controlled with feints let alone drop and stop him although I think Usyk beats him