How come the strong consensus is Ali and Louis are the top 2 heavyweights of all time?

I used to try explaining to people why I have Foreman as the GOAT but after seeing people put Usyk in their HW top 5 with 6 wins I feel I no longer have to. I do not want to hear a peep about Foremans lack of title defenses because clearly they do not matter.

 

You just ignore all the historical examples of others doing what you claim are exclusive achievements.

All those "cruiserweights" you're trashing overcame far more severe weight and size disadvantages than the ones you put Usyk on a pedestal for. CWs today don't win at HW because they aren't very good not because fighters that size can't win at HW. This was been proven over and over but you just choose to ignore it.

Marciano I agree with you on that. Thats different for a bunch of other reasons. Dempsey the giant killer is not Rocky Marciano. You're acting like every early champion fought opposition as small as Rocky Marciano.

 

Ali was a boxing champion and a self-promoter with an impressive resume. Louis dominated his division longer and more than anyone before or since. I don't know if they were the best but you can't put anyone above them. Either way it will be controversial. I think there were a few who had more potential but didn't use it like Louis and Ali did

 

That's why I make it easy for myself and just look how they did in there own eras. Being on top for the time and number of fights Ali and Louis were is all you can ask for imo.

 

I’m not ignoring anything, I’m saying the circumstances changed. Dempsey, Louis, even Ali — sure, they beat bigger guys now and then, but the average opponent wasn’t big by modern standards. Dempsey wasn't fighting 6’6”, 245+ lb athletic heavyweights as the norm — those types barely existed.

Usyk, Holyfield, and other modern cruisers are different because today's division is full of super-heavyweights, not the occasional big man. When you consistently beat men who are 30–40 pounds heavier and athletic, it's not the same as outboxing a lumbering 6'4" guy who weighed 210 back in the 1920s.

It's not about "putting Usyk on a pedestal", it's just recognizing the actual field he’s competing in.

 

My list usually falls like this

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Lewis
5. Wlad

I don't think any there are is any big difference anywhere on the list though.

 

Super heavweights usually existed. They weren't as successful against smaller men. Thats just the honest truth. The 45-60 period was really the only era that fits the portrait you are trying to paint. That and the turn of the 20th century. Otherwise its false.

And all people regardless of frame were lighter then your 6 ft 6s aren't just heavier so are your 6 ft 0s. It evens out and is a superficial difference. Fighters were not fighting "jacked". That was not a popular body type. And yes even then there were still 245 pound people like Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, Carnera etc. They weren't all Fred Fultons who was better than Tyson Fury.

Something I did a post on a few months ago is how lighter shorter HWs(within reason) tend to do better against superheavyweights than heavier medium sized people because the lighter shorter heavyweights actually have an advantage over the bigger guys while the smaller pudgy guys don't.

Part of the reason the division only had the occasional big men is they couldn't compete with the little guys you claim never beat superheavyweights.

 

My list has Holmes and Lewis swapped. Major controversy, I know.

 

my first four are the same as yours, though I do think there’s a bit of a gap between #2 and 3, and then a chasm after that.

 

My top 5 is similar but Ali and Louis are way above the rest for the reasons stated.

That's not saying I'm in any way convinced they'd beat the others. I'm too bad at making predictions about actual fights to make many confident ones about fantasy fights. And yet I'm probably not a worse predictor than most.

 

The problem is you’re acting like the occasional big man existing in history means the era was comparable to now. That’s not true. Today, super-heavyweights aren't rare anomalies — they are the standard at the top level. In the 30s–70s, most contenders were under 210–215 lbs.

And no, it doesn't "even out" because not everyone just got heavier equally. Modern training, nutrition, and styles produced bigger functionally athletic heavyweights, not just fat or slow ones like many of the old giants. It's a different game when 6’6”+ fighters who move and punch like lighter men are the norm, not the novelty.

As for smaller heavyweights doing better — it happens when the big guy is slow or unskilled, sure. But look around today: the division is stacked with big guys who can actually fight, and that's exactly why cruiserweights now struggle to crack the top consistently — unless they’re special, like Usyk or Holyfield.

The evidence is right in front of us, smaller heavies don't dominate anymore because the gap in size and athleticism doesn't "even out" like you say.

 

It’s quite extraordinary really.

 

Like Usyk you mean.

 

"Occasional". "Occasional" was your word choice not mine. Big men were common in the 10s and 30s,early 40s and other varying points.

Big men being common does have an impact but not really in terms of the 1v1 matchups. Its the wear and tear of fighting big men every fight for years. Something thats irelevant to Usyk because he only has a few HW fights.

"And no, it doesn't "even out" because not everyone just got heavier equally. Modern training, nutrition, and styles produced bigger functionally athletic heavyweights, not just fat or slow ones like many of the old giants. It's a different game when 6’6”+ fighters who move and punch like lighter men are the norm, not the novelty"

I thought you were criticizing the old SHWs for being too frail now you're criticizing them for being fat and slow? Which one is it? You're really going to talk about "fat and slow ones" when Usyks best win is Tyson Fury and another one of his wins is Derek Chisora? Lets not go there. This whole HW eras BMI is through the roof compared to the other ones.

"The evidence is right in front of us, smaller heavies don't dominate anymore because the gap in size and athleticism doesn't "even out" like you say".

No you just pretend they don't exist like Usyk pretends Kabayel doesn't exist.

 

Usyk is a legitimate heavyweight though a small one today, he would be considered massive in most eras until like the 90s