Your Hottest Takes:

No, Parker was rated #5 by the WBC when Dillian Whyte fought him. Chisora was #7.

 

They weren’t eliminators. Didn’t Whyte have a lawsuit? How did that go?

 

Changing the goalposts a bit, aren't we? #4 Breazeale fighting #12 Molina is "first mandatory" material, but #1 fighting #5 isn't?

 

Well, according to Whyte, he turned down Fury because of a lowball offer. I don't know whether that's true or not.

Pulev was for the IBF and isn't what the conversation is about (it's not about Whyte). Why would there even be a reason for him to fight Pulev when he thought he had a direct line to the AJ rematch?

 

Skipping the part about Whyte not doing the fight with Breazeale or Ortiz again, I see.

 

Well, “he thought” is doing a bit of heavy lifting here. Fight Pulev, win the IBF and you’re in very good position to make a heck of a lot more money in a unification.

My point is he has a history of believing he should be entitled to something but balking at what it takes to get it (win a final eliminator). Can you make an argument that he shouldn’t have to? Sure. But that doesn’t pay bills or accomplish the goal. Sometimes you have to jump through hoops to get what you want.

As for lowball offer, if a mandatory was ordered (as it was by the WBC), then he doesn’t have to take a lowball offer from Fury. He has to accept that he will fight in the mandatory and force it to go to purse bids. He gets his percentage of whatever that offer is … if Fury balks at that, the WBC puts someone else forth in that position (just as they did replacing Whyte) and he still gets his percentage of the purse bid.

If he thinks that’s not enough, he obviously has a skewed perception of the market — purse bids allow all promoters, including his own, to put forth their highest bid to promote the fight. If his own promoter doesn’t think it’s worth what Whyte does (the promoter is going to bid what he must to get it up to the point that he can make money), they should talk. But whatever people will bid is the free market pricing the fight, and some imaginary number in Dillian’s head of what it ‘should’ be has nothing to do with reality.

 

As I understand it, the fight with Breazeale was being negotiated. But talks of a planned rematch between Wilder and Fury stalled when Fury signed with Top Rank. That's why Breazeale got the direct shot at Wilder. I don't remember Whyte turning down that fight.

 

AJ was IBF champion, not Pulev. Beating Pulev would not have moved the needle at all at the negotiating table with AJ.

I seem to have confused Fury with AJ in my response as a quick Google tells me Whyte accepted the offer to fight Fury in an eliminator. Whyte declined AJ's terms of a flat fee should a third fight be necessary.
https://www.*******.com/articles/hearn-whyte-accepted-wbc-eliminator-lets-see-if-fury

It was Fury who passed in favor of a second shot at Wilder, much like the Breazeale situation for Whyte (see above).

What pays Whyte's bills and what counts towards his accomplishments mean less than nothing to me. The discussion is about Whyte's standing within the WBC, how he's repeatedly passed over for men of lower rank (Breazeale, Fury, Ortiz), and how that reflects on the WBC.

 

For the record, when I examine Pep's record pre and plane crash I see a decline (yes, he was still excellent post, but not as great as pre, imo), but I've read enough of your posts on the issue to accept that any attempt to persuade you otherwise would be futile, so that wasn't the purpose of my quoting your post.

Greatest 3 wins in history over the same fighter belongs to Ezzard Charles in my view. Moore typically ranks 5-10 spots lower than Pep on all time p4p lists, but was closer to his prime than Pep was in Saddler 3 and inparticular Saddler 4.

Nevertheless, Sandy's wins over Pep were truly great wins by an ATG.

 

They treated Fury like an injured fighter. In this instance mental injury, not a physical one. WBC did the same with Jermall Charlo.

So bunch of WBC BS, thanks for confirming.

 

Charlo never tested positive for steroids, nor did he retire.

 

Fury also didn't test positive for the championship fight and turned out he beat his case eventually. The Ring back then didn't have strict policy on retirements back then. They kinda followed the original Nat Fleischer's lineal type of recognition which is fair enough. They did strip Fury after he said he is retired in August 2022 tho. They knew his BS by that point.

 

He was offered final eliminators and did not take them. Other fighters who balked at final eliminators have been treated the same, no?

And if he beats Pulev to get a mandatory shot at AJ, then he can force purse bids and get his fair share rather than have to take whatever is on offer.

 

I think if the crash never happens to mark it as some kind of before/after line, we look at Pep no differently in 1948 than we would have in 1946. Again, I have never seen one article between the plane crash and the first bell in Saddler I that even hints at any decline. The same sports writers who covered him pre-crash were covering him when Sandy did his thing.

In fact, I don’t recall even stumbling across stories from the time on Pep’s “miracle recovery” from said crash. Maybe they exist and I haven’t seen them, or maybe I read them and just forgot or maybe … it just wasn’t a thing until people tried to rewrite history when he got manhandled by a less popular guy who roughed him up and ragdolled Willie.

I can’t see Ezzard’s wins over Archie Moore exceeding Sandy’s over Pep. 1) Willie was champion in two of Saddler’s wins over him and No. 1 contender in the others. That’s how they were seen at the time. 2) They were all title fights, scheduled for 15. These meetings had the higher stakes as compared to Ezz-Archie. 3) Willie is regarded as THE No. 1 featherweight of all time by most (yourself included, I think) … Archie is not. So Ezzard was beating a top-5 guy by most modern reckoning, while Sandy was beating a guy considered the best. 4) Sandy’s three wins over Pep were all inside the distance. One of Ezzard’s over Moore was, and one was close enough that it was a majority decision. Sandy knocked Pep out clean once and made him quit twice.

From 1942-1953, Pep was either champ or rated No. 1 by The Ring in all but one year (which he was third, I think 1952). There is no similar stretch during the time Ezzard fought Moore where he was champ or No. 1.

I outlined how Willie’s losses to Saddler were his only defeats in a remarkable stretch of years. Conversely, Archie lost three fights to people not named Ezzard Charles in 1948 (the year of their third and final meeting) and had two draws in 1946, the year of their first meeting … and lost a couple of fights the year before that. So I can’t abide the argument that Moore is at his peak or prime during his fights with Charles as compared to Pep, who was literally losing to no one else and as dominant by result as ever during his stretch where he fought Sandy — during that time, there was literally only ONE featherweight who could beat him, whereas we see there are others who could beat Moore.

The results simply do not support the conclusion that Moore was peak/prime and Willie was past it. I have no idea what you base that on, unless it’s ’well Willie couldn’t have still been prime or he wouldn’t have lost to Sandy.’ If Sandy never was born, it’s reasonable to say Willie stays undefeated through that stretch.

 

But I've already explained to you Fury and Breazeale passed on him, not the other way around. He was also #1 contender, fighting higher rated men than those two were. If he wants to make himself available for what is conceivably, to his mind, an easier title grab in Wilder, that's his prerogative.

Furthermore, Whyte got further along with the Joshua rematch than he ever did with Pulev. Pulev had a positional advantage in that he was rated IBF #1 or #2 at the time, which meant he was entitled to a much larger piece of the pie should it go to a bid (and it did, if I'm not mistaken). Why in the world would he go in for the same percentage he would have received for AJ against Kubrat Pulev (a non-draw)? Fact of the matter is, Fury, AJ, and Wilder were all within striking distance for Whyte at one time. And he had earned at least a shot at the green belt but was repeatedly sidestepped.