James Toney vs 70s George Foreman (15 rounds)

Follow up on your other points: He didn't shove against Ali because Ali was against the ropes most of the time. In the 1st round, Foreman did his usual shoving. Toney was out of shape for most of his fights. When he came in shape he was either at 160 or on PEDs. He actually came at better shape in the Peter rematch & did WORSE. Toney may want it on the inside with Foreman, but I'm sure he'll regret it sooner or later. Foreman with his unorthodox style will find ways to neutralise Toney's stationary defense.

 

I will respond to all of this but just a quick question… what exactly would George do to neutralise Toney’s defence?

 

Sure thing. To answer your question. His usual antics - which involves pushing, pulling, shoving & manipulation of his opponents guard. IMO, he'll do no different to Toney's shoulder roll defensive guard.

 

How so? This is very general? Any evidence? Any examples? not being funny but I broke down my points pretty throughly all through this thread.

 

All due respect, but I think you're pushing the goal post a little bit here. You asked what would Foreman do to neutralise Toney's defense. I answered by stating some of the methods he'd use. Then you ask for some examples. I already used Frazier. I'll add Norton, Chuvalo & Gullick as the best examples. Virtually everyone of his 69-77 fights has him doing this. Just in some fights he does it better than others.

 

I think he wants more technical detail.

Imagine a thread with Ingo vs Walcott. And then, some ignorant boob like me chimes in with, "Ingo hits Walcott with his sneaky right Bingo, and that knocks Walcott out."

Well, ok, I've given a barebones explanation, but it really doesn't give much of an idea of how Ingo accomplishes this. Or why we should believe it'll work against Walcott, who might have a different defensive system than Patterson or Machen.

If somebody asks me to clarify, and I say, "Just look at Ingo's fights. He sneaks in the Bingo a lot," my response wouldn't clarify much. I wouldn't have given much guidance for deeper discussion.

By contrast, if I started digging into how exactly Ingo tended to set the Bingo up with that snakecharmer jab of his, what his footwork for it looked like, and showed Walcott getting suckered by the same thing in various fights...maybe even brought in some footage...it would help both sides to understand why my prediction made sense.

 

How in any aspect are those opponents suitable for a discussion about Toney? Ali is a lot closer, they’ve got a stylistic similarity to them at the least given this will be a fight off the ropes… after that it’s Young and Peralta vaguely… broadly saying “he’d push Toney” and just saying “guard manipulation” without saying how it’d be applied is??? And saying it’d “just work” on his shoulder roll? A shoulder roll is used close up to parry a right and at a distance to make you reach… not sure what pushing or pulling on people’s gloves has to do with that? You aren’t really saying much respectfully.

 

This is due reading IMO like IDKSAB but I’ve consistently tired to bring it to film and tech technical discussion.

 

Do you want it broken down in simple terms? I don't know how much more simple I can make it. I've already said that Toney is not a mover (my first post) & will be standing directly in front of Foreman for the most part. I don't think it'll be hard for the much bigger, taller & longer armed Foreman, to be able to manhandle & control the frame of a much shorter & smaller fighter. Plus, all those guys you mentioned are movers. Toney isn't.

 

I think I’ve been pretty clear with what I asked, if I’m not refer to Cross’s post that’s about it in less stupid English (my English)

 

Foreman could get lucky and be able to catch Toney a couple of times and could win by stoppage in the mid rounds, just before he gases out

 

Personally, I think at the most Toney would expose some stylistic shortcomings of Foreman (such as his openness to the overhand right from below, as Qawi did show, even though it was old George).

If George / Saddler had any sense, he would be constantly aiming at Toneys chest. This type of work from a big thudding puncher would in turn massively lower Toneys work rate imo and put him constantly on the defensive.
Toney also wouldn't be able to get his jab going to pre emptively stop this as Foreman would be pulling his lead shoulder down with his own left hand. Of course, Toney would land some right hands as he does this, but this is where we come to physical characteristics. Foreman's chin is simply too good imo and Toney would not be able to work Foreman to exhaustion ala Ali or Young (as Foreman is lowering his work rate with his own arsenal and tricks). He doesn't have the strength or the legs.

I think Toney would get a pyrrhic victory here by going to decision. No more than that imo.

 

As for one technical exchange I can see in my head it's this:

1. Toney trying to hold center and jab / double jab.
2. Foreman comes foreward with his mummy guard, starts pulling down Toneys left shoulder with his left or his right (either works for him).
3. Toney is left off balance veering to his right. Foreman lands left screw shots / uppercuts as this happens.
4. George starts landing these with regularity, then starts following up with wide right hands to the kidney as he steps to the left, cutting Toney off whilst off balance.
5. Toney becomes more and more defensive / lower work rate as his body is roughed up and beaten. Relies on the ropes more and more.

 

I gave short, but clear explanations for why Foreman is able to neutralise Toney's defensive style & beat him. I didn't use a casual fan argument - such as "Toney's a MW. Foreman KO's him. Too big. Too strong". One of the factors I said was that Toney is stationary - which plays into the hands of Foreman (there's multiple examples of this). And while Toney is very good defensively, he'll still be directly in Foreman's punching range. Foreman was an unorthodox puncher who threw unpredictable punches at odd angles. Sometimes he could be predictable (every boxer has been at some point), but he had a knack for landing his unorthodox punches. I'm very sure he'll land them on Toney.

Another factor is he doesn't have the physical strength of Ali, which is someone that @Journeyman92 tried to compare Toney to (even though there's no comparison between the two). You also add in the lack of height, reach, size & power - Toney virtually has nothing to deter Foreman with for too long IMO.