Better resume/greater fighter: Floyd Mayweather or Barney Ross

Yeah Mayweather is a top 20 fighter probably. He can fight too. You Greg and George have great lists to go with Mat's.

 

You've entirely misunderstood the point. The point is America is the adopted home of pro boxing; which is why all the vast majority of champions, and most major fights have taken place there (at least before the Saudis got involved). This isn't arguable. It's just not. When America is interested in boxing, boxing is at its best. If you made a list combining the ATGs from every countries except the USA, that list would still be less impressive than the list of ATGs from the USA. By a distance too. And what's more, is that the vast majority of those guys from other countries, wind up having to go to America either to prove themselves or to spend their career where it's more lucrative and where there's better competition.

This is really basic boxing history. And I'm not even American

You absolutely can just wave the amateurs aside, it happens everyday Nobody cares who the amateur world champion is, nobody cares about gold medalists who never turned pro - or indeed, gold medalists who turned pro and didn't amount to anything.

And the irony here is amazing. You ruled out an entire era of pro boxing just 2 pages ago because it's barely filmed yet you're trying to prop up the less regulated and barely filmed global, amateur scene just to help your point

You've literally just proven this entire paragraph useless in your second point. Former Soviet Countries had infrastructure for boxing, or else they wouldn't be the amateur powerhouses they've been for decades. They also improved as countries in general - like the vast majority of the world. Their 30 years as pros is backed by decades of boxing culture and infrastructure. If anything, they should be held to a higher standard than the countries who got into pro boxing with zero infrastructure, and much worse living conditions.

I can't tell what your point is here. Are you saying these guys weren't great? You do realise that proves Ioakiems point, not yours right? I'm not really bothered about that debate, but you are wrong about three of the four.

Betulio Gonzalez is a top 15 flyweight of all time. Charting him up as just a talented but inconsistent flyweight is asinine. He was at the heart and centre of the deepest flyweight division of all time.

You're especially wrong about Marcel if you're categorising him as 'mid-tier'. He is arguably the best featherweight ever, and to put it into perspective, there has been precisely zero fighters from former Soviet countries who were as good as Ernesto Marcel. Zero.

Miguel Lora was a phenom, and a better resume than everyone today except Choco, Estrada, Usyk & Canelo. He wasn't merely good, he's one of the best bantamweights on film.

They aren't consistently putting out high level fighters though? They've had 3 in 10 years and one of those three is completely unproven. Compared to the 60s, 70s or 80s, outside of Inoue, Japan is in a significant lull right now.

But that's just it, all countries should have more champions at more weights because there's more champions and weight classes. The level Mexicans who are champs today, were contenders in the 60-80s. Mexico has been a power house since the 60s, and had the odd guy before that. It's not new and it's not taken anyone's place.

This is just marketing. The UKs talent right now is dire outside of the heavyweight division. There's no fighter in British boxing today who was as good as Walter McGowan or Alan Rudkin. I even heard it said the other week that Nick Ball is our P4P #1.

That's two fighters in 20+ years; 3, if you add in Gerry Penalosa. That's not a boxing powerhouse, at all. In the 20-40s, you had nearly a dozen ATGs from the Philippines such as: Little Dado, Young Tommy, Speedy Dado, Little Pancho, Small Montana, Pancho and Panchito Villa, You also had Elorde shortly after, the country's second best ever.

It isn't just Panama, Venezuela and Italy which have declined. Most of Latin America has declined, and we've more or less lost Cuba completely. And Mexico, Philippines, Japan and the UK are not new editions to the sport, and they're producing less great fighters, and less overall quality today than in years past. While I agree, there's still a lot more to come from the Soviet countries, from what they've given us so far, they've not even covered the loss of Cuba imo.

 

This isn't even worth breaking down.

50 fights in a year is harder than 50 fights in 20 years. Duh.

Modern fighters absolutely do have worst stamina, though. Everything you mentioned simply doesn't matter. Old school fighters were better conditioned and it not even arguable. Get Canelo to fight 45 rounds lmao.

I'm convinced you don't even know half of these buzzwords you keep typing about modern training, especially when you're summarising old school training as "running in the mountains". With all this marketing you've fallen for, I've got a really nice bridge to sell you.

Lol at me being nostalgic for something which happened 50+ years before I was born. The real problem here, is your recency bias and what appears to be a fascination with Eastern Europeans.

 

@Ioakeim Tzortzakis and @George Crowcroft should be getting paid for the lessons they're delivering in this thread. Some great posts, gents.

 

One of the most casual boxrec warrior takes I've seen in a few years I actually felt like responding to this because it's so bad. You also obviously know nothing about Asian boxing.

Lurk 10 years.

It's an alt mate. Has a very similar writing style and viewpoints to a certain poster who has suddenly barely posted in a while, all the while becoming extremely active themselves. I don't think you're actually gonna get anywhere with this debate.

 

Seemed that way to me. It does remind me of when I'd school Mendoza.

 

Not who I was thinking of, but those were the days

Now, is GGG greater than Chang, little Crowcroft?

 

I don't think TheMaster is Mendoza, tbf. He just reminds me of him (not a compliment, if you're reading this btw).

They were the days, indeed mate. GGG vs Toney, Ggg/Chang or the endless Vitali and Wlad debates. What a time to be alive. Especially with him sending me memes

 

The war carries on.

 

Whilst the topic of the thread title is reasonably debatable - ok Ross currently leads 26 to 10, but multiple posters, myself included, have commented they've voted for Ross but consider it close - some of the side debates on various issues of boxing history haven't been a war, they've been an utter one sided obliteration.

 

I did warn him

 

This person Is next level weird he's admitted he likes to make people "run away in debates" so basically what he does he likes to do is disagree with any little trivia thing to drag out a conversation as long as possible. And then when someone stops replying he considers that a "win" and brags about it he did the same to @Pugguy.

So all of it is just a game of winning a debate and then just to flex about it nothing to do with having a normal conversation. Hence that's why there's a pattern that he never gets anywhere in a conversation as evident in this thread aswell.

When I put his themaster account on ignore he made a 2nd account to debate with me recently and was liking his own posts on themaster and got banned for it as I said next level weird.

My advice to @George Crowcroft @Ioakeim Tzortzakis don't give this numpty the time of day.