James Toney vs 70s George Foreman (15 rounds)

@roughdiamond does thou fly a French flag? Or are ye keen sir rapscallion?

 

Tis true, Tis and to throw some more gasoline on this fire… 227lbs and visually massive, not just based on fights with 250lbers like we should but bodybuilding like you see here using this roided up JT I’m not sure the comparably lithe 217lbs prime and slim George Foreman breaks even for strength? It’s more probable the lower to the ground, PED using weightlifter (dat dere functional football strength) who everyone agrees is one of the finest inside fighters most likely man handles George…

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Rise my child

 

So I'm drunk the ANZAC day party is over and I am walking home... I've decided it's time to write my summary of this fight... a sort FAQ for this, so shall we proceed with this terrible truth? beginning with the version of Toney we are using it's the late 190lbs to about 2006 version... I'd use the 217lbs Holyfield version to best represent a mix of his new size and what was left of his "prime" not the obese old man he'd become very quickly.

Which version is allowed to be used of Foreman is one of the dumbest debated topics around this forum so I'll use what I see fit (get over it) that is instead of two fights worth of a prime lol using a big sample size (Of a guy in his 20s at least) seems fair seeing as we are going as far as brining up how Big James coasted at 38 years old unphased and built like a hamster.

"Illegal Shoving, Lever Guards and keeping the distance"

To begin with the solution to illegal shoving is numerous... If you extend your left to frame off and create distance you've only got a right hand to hit me with and vice versa, it's a way of keeping people away but it puts them at the end of your reach, your back to jabbing and straight right punching range and that's an issue here because no one has ever beat JT by just throwing right hands, jabbing is a credible approach if you do it correctly but George just used his to get closer and back to mid range for his hooks and long uppercuts.

Honestly... it's not worth punching off that "frame" unless there off balance or dim, it makes you predictable as whatever hand is on you, you keep an eye on the other one, if GF extended the left to create space Toney would roll whatever right came to his head or body with either a right hand (head shot counter) or a right uppercut to the chin (body punch counter)... if you shove someone when they get close to you (Peralta and Frazier got close no issue… not that what they did once they got there was wise lol) your hands extend away high, that's exposing your body... does anyone think Eddie Mustafa, Freddie Roach or Bill Miller wouldn't see this? For an easy to spot example see what Stewart did to Ancient Foreman when he tried it, he got inside let George lift his hands to push him back and raked his body... James could play that same play at any point because he kept the habit as early as the Peralta fight lol. Joe Frazier was battered / knocked off balance by this long armed illegal shoving nonsense because because he bent at the waist and hovered over his lead foot... it's physics not "otherworldly strength" lol JT stood properly it's a non factor.

ONWARD'S! If Mr GF extended his right with James to smother his jab (like he did with Norton) "Mega' Toney would step in and throw a long hook above it and clock him, from that right hand extended position his options are to withdraw the RIGHT hand and throw a hook or jab...James knowing this could mix it up, feint the long hook and get under the return hook of Foreman to counter - If GF choose to jab, James can make him reach (he steps in near every jab) and counter with a straight right or just slip outside it and use his right to get back inside... every successful touchdown (getting inside) is a chance to either smash up his body (when GF’s shoving) or get to work if said body is hurting and he doesn't shove. Peralta (only 3 inches taller and 3 inches longer reach then JT which is about the length of half a dollar note) and Ali used the above mentioned long hook to exploit this guard to good effect... in short you aren't pushing James or smothering him unless you're going to reset.

"But Foreman's Jab" How about his ability to cut off the ring?

Foreman had a helluva battering ram jab... you know why? because he was always cutting off the ring, steeping into it, on the hunt he didn't cut and measure he was trying to get you against a wall to beat you over the head with his caveman-ish ham fists... What do people say about James "Ice Tea" Toney? He got 'jabbed up and down by low IQ fighters bro" well yes guys threw lots of jabs at him... but if it meant they'd be brought to close quarters or it dragged them to the ropes... Rahman for example got it correct in spots, stay away just jab... What does Toney want? a guy who comes to him, abandons his reach and wails on him he's a top shelf counter puncher with one of the best smothering/inside fighting systems I've seen and all his success at HW against Peters and Rahaman came when they tried to overpower / maul him both guys corners begged for them not to go to the ropes/fight inside and you can see why in the fights... Samuel Peter pretty much just landed rabbit punches... against Peralta, Frazier 1-2, Ali, Young and Norton what did George do??? he chugged forward, jabbing and trying to corner them or get them into range for hooks / uppercuts it's what he wanted and not wise here like it was in Zaire (Ali's height and reach is irrelevant to fighting on the ropes and inside, I don't know why it would be, it get's brought up a bit as if being tall helps inside? Ali sucked there and owned GF there)

Inside Fighting and on the ropes!

It's pretty much a fact, a close to it quasi fact that George comes out to bomb, seek and destroy. I believe in the middle of the ring he won't let James inside he'll push/shove him back outside and stalk him with jabs and long punches to the ropes all of which will put him back inside when Toney steps in or under those long hooks / slips the jab... trouble is every time he shoves to make space he's pushing around another guy who weighs 217lbs (same weight as prime GF) and he'll be ripped up to the body wearing him down.
GF's A heel is he doesn't have a plan B if the body blows start to sting (Ask Holyfield) he will need to box Toney (LOL) or fight inside.

NOW breaking down if he elects to fight inside... GF get's square, his hips are right on his man he wings wide from the side and up the middle head and body... trouble is if someone (Jame's) get's there lead shoulder into your chest when you're positioned the way GF is you now can (quite literally) only throw a right to the back of the head and a left hook... George's hook is so long, wide and inefficient James will time it with a straight every time... even the biggest die hard GF fan admits his hooks are sloppy, wide monstrous things. See Golota bully Bowe with this exact strategy with way less skill inside, GF will either die via uppercut or right hand... in some rare aberration if he steps straight backwards to escape "Big" James he'd get the Prince Williams treatment.
"No Air conditioner in any corner! " chin, stamina and strungff

Onto the minor non technical points shall we? James Toney survived hard punching 240LBS Rahman (likely on PEDs) whilst morbidly obese... Ol Rahaman did nothing in those 12 rounds despite being 40 punches off Ike Ibeabuchi's punch record with Tua...CompuBox stats: Rahman 279/933 (29.9%), power punches 159/554 (28.7%); Toney 263/633 (41.5%), power punches 215/440 (48.9%). Rahman was only 42 punches away from Ike Ibeabuchi's 975 punches thrown by an individual in a heavyweight fight. Um - so watching the Peters fight (250lbs) and the first Rahaman one... seeing Toney in zero danger of being KO'd and never physically man handled how do we come to the conclusion GF just hit's JT early or overpowers and KO's him? (All 217lbs with zero PED's we insist) I think it's because we know / hope GF ain't going 15 rounds but we should know GF ain't KOing '"ice T" either so what happens over 15? the bare minimum movement of an out of character JF (who was shot) in the 2nd fight had him huffing and puffing? Unlike JF which i explained elsewhere here you don't hit James with dumb looking uppercuts he doesn't bend into them for you, he won't go nowhere he's famously one of if not the defensive specialist of an era FFS so in short styles have always made fights probably a TKO by the 10th.

 

@greynotsoold scroll up

 

Can’t believe a 13 beer deep post scared off the entire Foreman mafia? wowzers guess it’s just something of a quasi fact folks will turn away from and pretend doesn’t exist - Big James > George Foreman.

 

I swear when it comes to Foreman you all sound the same “George so big so strong” (he is small and pretty weak today / in Toney’s HW era) I did a technical breakdown with plenty of evidence and not one of you attacks that argument? I did it drunk yet stone cold sober you all write more “He wins just because I want him to” and hope to dog pile the thread? till one of you builds an argument this thread is and will be read as by future generations of forum folk “Big James >” because no one is capable of refuting it.

 

I mean… Toney proved he could fight guys despite a BIGGER gap then Spinks vs Leonard I don’t understand? Did you not read my post where I broke down the whole fight for you? down to the technical level?