Could anyone out slug young Foreman?

C’mon, you weren’t misrepresented. You know that.

Don’t try to switch horses.

For the intents and purposes, you did claim that Ring Rust isn’t real - proof: you’ve tried to apply that ideology to Foreman (vs Lyle) - Foreman who was neither a novice or early career pro as at the time of the Lyle fight.

No, I didn’t say Leonard just sparred hard. I said that he actually engaged in full on legit boxing matches in the gym - fully replicated real combat conditions. Which fighters of today do know who have actually done/do that?

I didn’t say Foreman was just sad - a deliberate understatement on your part. He was downright depressed and mentally messed up having come off his first defeat.

If there wasn’t something “up”, why wait so long before getting back in the saddle? His schedule prior to his first defeat was that much more busy.

Show me the evidence that Foreman was working hard in the gym during the interim.

For the Toronto Five on April 1975 Foreman weighed 230 lbs - as compared to 220 lbs in Zaire. So you think that was reflective of hard, serious training? Hardly.

Foreman scored 3 TKOs (at least one controversial) inside of 2 rounds each against non descript opposition. The 4th opponent, Polite, lasted 3 rounds. The 5th, Boone Koran, who Foreman had previously slayed inside of 2 rounds in a real fight back in 1970 also lasted the 3 rounds.

After the farce, Foreman admitted that he was exhausted after just only the first fight - and it was clear Foreman was running out of puff very quickly - even as measured against the pre Zaire and in Zaire endurance he had displayed. Again, hardly in tip top condition.

He trimmed a bit for Lyle - 226 lbs but he physically didn’t look as rock hard as the guy who destroyed both Frazier and Norton.

I’ve already read what you had to say and I’ve already duly addressed it. Suggesting that I re-read it or you repeating exactly the same points in follow posts doesn’t negate or discredit my already posted responses.

I will say that you have a very strange and slanted axe to grind when it comes to Foreman - but I don’t just say it, I’ve duly upheld it - and I think others have also upheld it previously.

 

You won’t shift on George it’s fine, none of you Bert Sugar people ever do but Ray Leonard just definitely sparred hard for Hagler… whatever you want to call it, it was just sparring you don’t think guys spar 12 rounders hard in the gym? Mike Weaver would spar 15… You should know hard sparring can mean fight intensity right? Speaking of Tyson he did it regularly and famously same with Frazier…Toney sparred 15-25 5min rounds against whoever was down. If you’re in the gym fighting with no cameras, no money or rankings on the line it’s called HARD SPARRING stop trying to dress it up you’ve been got.

 

Bowe?

 

No. Bowe had a hell of a chin. He fought Holyfield three times and only went down once. I don't know how his wasted ass didn't get stopped by Golota.. and he didn't.

 

I think it would be a tough task out slugging Foreman from the Lyle fight and an even tougher task outslugging the Foreman from the Frazier 1 to the Ali fights.

 

It blows my mind people are unable to differentiate the different versions of Foreman in the 70s. The differences between Foreman pre- and post-Zaire were night and day. People act like there are only two versions of Foreman, (68-70s Foreman) and Old Foreman when that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

I don’t shift off facts and universally applied common sense - I would apply these standards to any fighter -

You gave yourself away - you’re just preoccupied with Foreman and taking him down which has caused you to submit an irrational proposition.

Bert Sugar? @BertSugar? Sweet. Reaching for Bert clearly proves that the wheels are falling off your argument - suffice to say, Bert Sugar has NOTHING to do with the discussion.

Okay, let’s pull you back into focus - addressing the relevant facts and applying common sense.

I told what you Ray did and it was a much less common prep. Denying such facts doesn’t support your argument, it only discredits it.

See link below, last paragraph under BACKGROUND.

NOTE: “ Unknown to Hagler OR the media at the time - Ray secretly engaged in 4 warm up BOUTs in private.”

That’s NOT just hard sparring that both Hagler and the Media would’ve naturally guessed Ray to have included in his training anyway, of course.

No, Ray’s recapture of himself included 4 unseen/unknown legit warm up bouts under completely authentic conditions against top shelf partners.

No time outs, no calling time when Ray got rattled (and Ray admitted to being literally out on his feet on one occasion but had to fight through same - as you do in a real fight) etc.

Okay, so ante up with evidence of any other fighters preparing in similar, authentic fashion. Also address that it’s clear that Foreman wasn’t doing much training during his hiatus anyway.[url]
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[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Hagler_vs._Sugar_Ray_Leonard[/url]

I have been “got”?

Nah.

You’re just trying to “dress up” your own long held and slanted perspective on Foreman as some sort of stand alone, generically applied boxing “truth”.

That “truth” being that ring rust obviously caused by protracted withdrawal/absence from real, professional ring engagements can be completely negated/averted by maintained, routine gym work otherwise.

 

Totally agree Greg.

 

by out slug we are meaning who could beat him in a war?

we need to go with scrappers here. I don’t know why anyone is bringing up the true boxer punchers like Liston and Lewis. Sure, they COULD scrap (Lewis certainly had them), but that wasn’t their thing. We need the guys who like a scrap. Bowe is a great candidate. As is Holyfield. Yeah, Holyfield can’t hit like Foreman (or Bowe), but he made up for it with durability, aggression, and general meanness in the ring; I’ve never seen another fighter whose natural instinct when hurt is to go on the attack.

I send in either of them. I don’t know that young Foreman’s usual tactics of pushing and framing would work against Bowe. And I think a young Foreman would be shocked with how Holyfield fought him, probably worse than he was with Ali.

they both have a good shot at it. I’d say that with the right tactics (fighting the fight Ali did), Holyfield could beat him. Although of course Holyfield wouldn’t fight that fight.

 

Holyfield was not a top heavyweight puncher. Perhaps you can list the top punchers Bowe fought ... not Lewis, not Tyson, not Tua, Not Ruddock, not Bruno, not Mercer , not Moorer ... the biggest punchers he fought were fringe contender Cooper, Holyfield, Hide and Golota who ruined him. He did not fight one top puncher .. you can have your own opinion but not your own facts .. these are the facts.

 

I think Holyfield can beat young George in a legit tear up. You don't have to have a huge bang to beat young George, you need an anvil for a chin and a heart the size of a truck with the engine to drive it...

 

A few interesting ones

Tyson - Had the chin, speed and power. Prime Tyson would be more likely to box though, any other version brawls and loses.

Bowe - Excellent infighting skills and heart with decent power. Not sure his chin holds up.

Holy - Had the skills, heart, chin and cardio.

Tua - Had the power and chin. Maybe a bit too limited.

Mercer - Similar to Tua but more skilled with a bit less power

Ibeabuchi - Kind of a wild card, but showed great chin, power, cardio and a willingness to brawl.

Ali - Proved he can beat young George. Maybe he can also do it brawling

 

Sugar Ray Leonard had “4 secret fights” grief stop with that, that sounds like media hype talk to me. Leonard sparred hard in the gym for 4 12 rounders to see if he still had it… that is unless I missed where he had 4 fights somewhere in 84-87 I can’t see it on boxrec? Who were the opponents? What was the purse? What governing body? Can I get a link what were the opponents ranked before and after? 2 TKO’s according to Wiki unheard of for guys to get stopped in a hard spar lol “ante up the evidence that fighters have had secret fights” Let’s not, I’m not playing this pedantic game where unless other people are calling there 12 rounder spars “fights” it doesn’t count you’ll just go on and on guys spar sometimes 20 rounds hard… just admit you used an example of hard sparring being substituted for fighting lol the line between a hard spar and a fight is little to none besides money and a crowd mostly - it’s why Buck Smith racked up so many bouts.

 

Oh I see that explains why Bivins was at one point the P4P Boxrec GOAT I just didn’t have access to the true Jim Biv and his hidden achievements…

 

young George never faced a Holyfield. Holyfield is much, much better than guys like Cobb and Chuvalo. He combines the granite chin and warrior heart with top tier skills. I’m not saying I’m 100% on him winning, but he’s got a real solid shot. He’s usually on my list to out-scrap [name who you want].