Could anyone out slug young Foreman?

I never left any of this out? the answer is across multiple posts here. Part of your answer to this question is in this post your quoting ffs he wasn’t “Rusty” and it’s not a “Comeback” you guys just keep saying that over and over when it’s VERY clearly not true and I just broke it down.

 

Stop acting surprised

 

You need to understand that Ring Rust is a very real thing, visually apparent to the eye and recognised and referred to by both trainers and fighters alike forever without any opposing argument suggesting that it is imagined.

Sparring etc. will only take you so far, it does not replicate the duresses and variable contexts of real time professional combat.

It also doesn’t account for the management of real time nerves that many fighters only take into the ring for a real fight OR fouls and slanted refereeing which I highly doubt is replicated in the gym - just to name two more differences.

To shake off some of the ring rust for the Hagler fight, Ray Leonard participated in 3 ? fully simulated, 12 round fights in the gym - an uncommon prep and one that would not be practical for a fighter each and every time out - increased likelihood of injuries and wear/tear to name two pitfalls.

Across the board, many boxers are fighting far less regularly than their predecessors, so they’re engaging opposition prepared in kind - as such, their successes are relative to similarly active/inactive opposition.

But the original point was/is that 13 month inactive Foreman was clearly rusty vs Lyle as well as him trying to adopt a modified, more restrained style.

Whether you think he could’ve overcome that with sufficient work in the gym doesn’t matter at any rate - I doubt that a depressed Foreman did much of anything in the interim and his Ring Rust was very much real.

Also look at Lyle’s far more active schedule by comparison - and Ron was also coming off a very similar slug out with no less than Earnie Shavers - very nice prep going into the fight against Rusty George - but Foreman still emerged victorious.

What say you @JohnThomas1 @swagdelfadeel and @Greg Price99 ? - did I drop some gnarly pearls of wisdom here or not?


Kidding. NRN - but feel free to drop in a like, even if it’s a pity like or if you feel it’s been heavily solicited - I’ll take whatever I can get.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and oh my, i am beholding!!!!!!!! It's Winston Wolfe type stuff if ever i saw it.

Lets listen to George. To be frank we both know it's hardly rocket science, tho.

“I have to stay active, that's my desire,” he said. “I want to be champion again, but you can't he out 15 months as I was. You've got to be active to be in top level activity. I was rusty. Inactivity means you're just this far from missing [taking] a punch—and it doesn't miss, and you get hit.”

 

First Pug I didn’t say it wasn’t real and I’ll clarify it now I said it is for novices and pros early on not for a very established guy who hasn’t fought in a year let’s take Canelo and other modern fighters for example… you can knock the rust off in hard sparring, it’s how it’s always been done and even back then if you weren’t fighting frequently enough to get paid to get sharp and that’s the preference as sparring partners cost money etc - you essentially got paid to fight sparring partners if you kept very busy and fought Johnny Paycheck etc. Refer to the first post to summarise ring rust again… don’t misrepresent me and say I’m calling it imaginary btw. To summarise your post… GF was sad and you just think he didn’t train hard… that he needed to fight Johnny Paycheck to prepare for Lyle? BUT you also said Ray Leonard sparred hard to prepare for Hagler to get rid of the ring rust? So you agree?

 

Cheers JT.

Now I can send you the usual monetary gratification or would you prefer a couple of cases of XXXX instead, just to change it up?

I drive a hard bargain though - whatever the gratification, it’s also subject to your Broncos beating the Panthers! Go Brisbane….

Re the Foreman quote provided - yes, hardly rocket science - it makes perfect sense.

 

I'll be throwing money everywhere if we beat those suckers!

 

C’mon, you weren’t misrepresented. You know that.

Don’t try to switch horses.

For the intents and purposes, you did claim that Ring Rust isn’t real - proof: you’ve tried to apply that ideology to Foreman (vs Lyle) - Foreman who was neither a novice or early career pro as at the time of the Lyle fight.

No, I didn’t say Leonard just sparred hard. I said that he actually engaged in full on legit boxing matches in the gym - fully replicated real combat conditions. Which fighters of today do know who have actually done/do that?

I didn’t say Foreman was just sad - a deliberate understatement on your part. He was downright depressed and mentally messed up having come off his first defeat.

If there wasn’t something “up”, why wait so long before getting back in the saddle? His schedule prior to his first defeat was that much more busy.

Show me the evidence that Foreman was working hard in the gym during the interim.

For the Toronto Five on April 1975 Foreman weighed 230 lbs - as compared to 220 lbs in Zaire. So you think that was reflective of hard, serious training? Hardly.

Foreman scored 3 TKOs (at least one controversial) inside of 2 rounds each against non descript opposition. The 4th opponent, Polite, lasted 3 rounds. The 5th, Boone Koran, who Foreman had previously slayed inside of 2 rounds in a real fight back in 1970 also lasted the 3 rounds.

After the farce, Foreman admitted that he was exhausted after just only the first fight - and it was clear Foreman was running out of puff very quickly - even as measured against the pre Zaire and in Zaire endurance he had displayed. Again, hardly in tip top condition.

He trimmed a bit for Lyle - 226 lbs but he physically didn’t look as rock hard as the guy who destroyed both Frazier and Norton.

I’ve already read what you had to say and I’ve already duly addressed it. Suggesting that I re-read it or you repeating exactly the same points in follow posts doesn’t negate or discredit my already posted responses.

I will say that you have a very strange and slanted axe to grind when it comes to Foreman - but I don’t just say it, I’ve duly upheld it - and I think others have also upheld it previously.

 

You won’t shift on George it’s fine, none of you Bert Sugar people ever do but Ray Leonard just definitely sparred hard for Hagler… whatever you want to call it, it was just sparring you don’t think guys spar 12 rounders hard in the gym? Mike Weaver would spar 15… You should know hard sparring can mean fight intensity right? Speaking of Tyson he did it regularly and famously same with Frazier…Toney sparred 15-25 5min rounds against whoever was down. If you’re in the gym fighting with no cameras, no money or rankings on the line it’s called HARD SPARRING stop trying to dress it up you’ve been got.

 

Bowe?

 

No. Bowe had a hell of a chin. He fought Holyfield three times and only went down once. I don't know how his wasted ass didn't get stopped by Golota.. and he didn't.

 

I think it would be a tough task out slugging Foreman from the Lyle fight and an even tougher task outslugging the Foreman from the Frazier 1 to the Ali fights.

 

It blows my mind people are unable to differentiate the different versions of Foreman in the 70s. The differences between Foreman pre- and post-Zaire were night and day. People act like there are only two versions of Foreman, (68-70s Foreman) and Old Foreman when that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

I don’t shift off facts and universally applied common sense - I would apply these standards to any fighter -

You gave yourself away - you’re just preoccupied with Foreman and taking him down which has caused you to submit an irrational proposition.

Bert Sugar? @BertSugar? Sweet. Reaching for Bert clearly proves that the wheels are falling off your argument - suffice to say, Bert Sugar has NOTHING to do with the discussion.

Okay, let’s pull you back into focus - addressing the relevant facts and applying common sense.

I told what you Ray did and it was a much less common prep. Denying such facts doesn’t support your argument, it only discredits it.

See link below, last paragraph under BACKGROUND.

NOTE: “ Unknown to Hagler OR the media at the time - Ray secretly engaged in 4 warm up BOUTs in private.”

That’s NOT just hard sparring that both Hagler and the Media would’ve naturally guessed Ray to have included in his training anyway, of course.

No, Ray’s recapture of himself included 4 unseen/unknown legit warm up bouts under completely authentic conditions against top shelf partners.

No time outs, no calling time when Ray got rattled (and Ray admitted to being literally out on his feet on one occasion but had to fight through same - as you do in a real fight) etc.

Okay, so ante up with evidence of any other fighters preparing in similar, authentic fashion. Also address that it’s clear that Foreman wasn’t doing much training during his hiatus anyway.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Hagler_vs._Sugar_Ray_Leonard

I have been “got”?

Nah.

You’re just trying to “dress up” your own long held and slanted perspective on Foreman as some sort of stand alone, generically applied boxing “truth”.

That “truth” being that ring rust obviously caused by protracted withdrawal/absence from real, professional ring engagements can be completely negated/averted by maintained, routine gym work otherwise.

 

Totally agree Greg.