Who performs better against Liston - Sharkey or Schmeling?

Good answer, totally agree.

 

Using the Ali vs Norton vs Foreman vs Ali triangle theory doesn't fit in this situation. Norton was awful against punchers, we saw this motif repeated time and again.
Schmeling and Conn were highly competitive against the best puncher of the division when he was in or close to his prime. It stands to reason that if they can take hits from Louis and find ways to outbox him that they can do the same to worse fighters, which Liston and Foreman very admittedly were, both being slower and more limited than Louis, on top of having a more limited gas tank.
Another reason the stylistic match up can work for Schmeling and Conn when it didn't for Frazier and Norton is the type of fighter we are talking about. Frazier was a come forward slugger/swarmer, Norton was an aggressive stalker/puncher. Neither of the two had particularly robust footwork excluding cornering their opponent. Both were in big trouble when their tactics were tested against someone who had a big punch and a great chin.
Schmeling on the other hand showed excellent defense and got himself out of trouble against Louis, as did Conn. They proved how their footwork and overall defense could serve them, Norton and Frazier never did that against a big puncher.

Lastly, we have examples of how Liston (and Foreman) performed against defensive guys who could move. He has a positive win ratio over that type to be sure but getting decisions over Marshall and Whitehurst isn't impressive, at all.
Decisioning Machen while desperately trying to get him out also isn't particularly impressive in the context of how he'd match up against Schmeling and Sharkey, who were both of significantly higher caliber than Machen.
To say he matches up favorably against masters like Sharkey and Schmeling is a baseless assertion. Not when Schmeling did so well against Louis and Sharkey against Wills and Godfrey.

I'm not saying Schmeling beats Louis therefore he beats Liston, I'm saying Schmeling possessed attributes that when present in fighters Liston actually faced, those attributes yielded a certain amount of success despite those fighters being significantly inferior to Schmeling.
Adding Schmeling's own results against a guy who possessed the attributes you claim would give Liston a clear advantage, it becomes evident that Liston winning over Schmeling is not at all a foregone conclusion.

 

Yeah, Machen who was never on the level of either men pitted against Liston in this hypothetical, with an injured right hand going into the bout (not that I take Machen's own word for it, but it is pretty clear watching the fight that he is more gunshy with that right arm than comeback Louis).

Louis was thrown to wolves that make Marty Marshall seem like a Chihuaha in comparison, and at a much earlier age. In Liston's case I can't overlook every time he faced a mover because he just hadn't quite reached his prime yet, that's awfully convenient as it leaves pretty much every fight against that type out of the equation.

Man, he must've worked pretty efficiently to squeeze in two title fights worth of sparring sessions in those six minutes.
I know about the left hand, but footage is above all, and in footage I see Liston throwing hooks and jabs repeatedly from start to corner stoppage. I can't deny what my eyes see, and that doesn't look like a crippled left arm.
If only I had a nickel for every time they cooked up an injured arm story for every time a puncher underperfomed. At least Wilder would've passed the toll, his suit was heavy.

Chuvalo had Ali peeing blood. I'd say lasting the distance while doing a bunch of body punching is better than getting knocked out in six.
Folley was also even on one card and two points behind on the other and he managed to do that without Ali being reduced to a blind man for a whole round. I'll concede that Folley didn't do better than Liston, they both did about the same.

The flaw story has been wildly overblown. Schmeling didn't need a flaw when he knocked out Risko, he didn't need one when he kncoked out Young Stribling, and he didn't need one when he hit Louis with two hard rights in the rematch, when in the first fight he missed all three crosses he threw in round one.
That green Louis had two KOs over Ramage. That's more KOs against ranked movers than Liston had in his entire career. Nevermind all the other contenders (and two ex champs) he had destroyed before meeting Max.
Green Louis was a very robust fighter, exceptionally conditioned and Max used various different openings to hit him, he wasn't just spamming rights after Louis jabbed.

You can use the Baer argument to say Liston would've knocked Schmeling out, I have no problem with that. Max **** the bed that night and deserves the criticism. If he comes out to fight Liston as aggressivley and upright as he did against Baer he isn't lasting the distance.
I'll still use the Baer fight as an example of how durable Schmeling was against a huge puncher though. He was trading blows with Baer and ended up being taken out with a lethal right hand followed by half a dozen more power punches to and to the back of the skull.

 

I went with schmeling. But honestly I think they both get sparked kinda quick

 

I rate Schmeling over Sharkey but in this match up I’d favor Sharkey to do better. Schmeling stayed in the pocket and was often very stationary. I think that may spell trouble for him with Liston, however Max had a booming right hand and he would have opportunity to hurt Sonny. But I think he’s a little too small to win this firefight.
Sharkey was fairly fast and quick in his prime and has a solid track record outboxing big guys that were all bigger or equal to Liston. Wills, Godfrey, Carnera, just to name 3. So I think he could box and move for awhile and make Sonny look slow chasing him. Maybe take a few rounds and do at least as good as Machen if not better.

 

They'd both get sparked sooner rather than later. It's a coin toss who fares "less worse".

 

That is such a terrible take. Terrible.

 

Schmeling doesn’t have a great backfoot game, and as a much smaller man, that would be disastrous considering Liston had devastating combinations and great punch selection, Schmeling has a great skillset, just not one that would give him success against a guy like Liston, he gets blasted out IMO.

Sharkey at least has foot and head movement, and may last a few rounds, but I doubt he wins many, if any rounds and is just in survival mode until Liston finds the knockout punch.

 

Baer does make one wonder whether they just didn't have rules against holding & hitting, rabbit punching, backfists, and shoving back then.

It isn't one of those artfully done sneaky things like Tyson's elbows, Holyfield's head, or Shavers holding behind the head while uppercutting. It's really blatant. In fact, Baer probably did this stuff more than he threw normal punches. In clear view of the referee.

Either the customary rules didn't exist about this kind of thing, or Maxie was being protected. But it's kind of ridiculous to watch either way; like skill-less MMA.

 

Now I am going to have to think about that one.

The smart money would probably be on Schmeling, just because he can be trusted not to come down with baby brain.

Schmeling was pretty consistent when it counted.

Having said that Schmeling worked in the pocket more, and did it well enough to beat Joe Louis in fairness to him, but he still worked in the pocket more.

Sharkey actually brings more tools to the table, if he can hold it together.

Neither of these men should be counted out against him.

Either could be his stiffest test outside of Ali, and both were better than Machen.

 

prime Sharkey from 26 - 27 has better shot

 

Sharkey was as good as Machen, prime for prime. And about the same size. He would have the atributes to make it to the end.

 

Yes, but if Liston is at his best neither sees the 8th.

 

Agree with you 100 percent. The problem is you never knew which Jack was going to show up.

 

Again, if you are going to insist on the best version of Sharkey then you must have the best version of Liston. And that version of Liston destroys any version of Jack Sharkey ever presented on film. Too strong, too powerful, a sound enough boxer, but most of all too much man.