Could anyone out slug young Foreman?

Well that’s your personal experience (with respect you’re not an established long time pro - Or are you? Not being cute, it wouldn’t be surprising we have a few pros etc) I’ve got my own personal sources one including a world champion fighter (believe me or not, doesn’t matter to me) and I didn’t plan on getting into a “back and forth” it can be done it’s a fact, it has been done before and Foreman’s case against Lyle would rest on whether you think he trained hard in camp to knock the rust off which I think he did but that’s as far as it can go methinks without having further info. But anyways we can be part ways on this topic like gentleman cheers GCC.

 

You try minimize Foreman/Ali/Liston/70's heavyweights at every single opportunity. It's bizarre. Here it is again in your very first sentence. Foreman's actual time off was a bees prong shy of 15 months. Prior to that Foreman had been fighting every 7 months or so. We are talking double the amount of time off that he had been taking. Post Lyle and pre Frazier he'd been extremely busy.

Not being acknowledged is that not only was he coming off double the layoff, but he was coming back against a top 5 heavyweight after a knockout loss. Taking on a top 5 contender when you are coming off a knockout loss is plain stupid. I think it was you claiming Lyle was selected to make him look good. That's utterly ridiculous. Knocked out fighters don't have extended layoffs then come straight back vs top 5 contenders to look good.

The whole Leonard thing has triggered into stupidity. Pugman mentioned Leonard's unique type prep to highlight that ring rust is real. There's simply no argument to be made against it no matter how disingenuous one gets. It's bizarre. The entire sidebar of whether one calls Leonard's whatever they were fights, simulated fights, sparring or whatever is totally irrelevant. The fact that they strived beyond their normal scope because they were worried about his lack of real fights stands for itself and is a valid piece of evidence in Pugmans case.

Pug has already explained to you that the guys that fight far less today vs Foreman's era are not disadvantaged because their opponents are similar or the same. The moderns have no doubt structured their training and tactics around the modern schedule. Was Foreman fighting once a year?

The bolded shows you opining that because Leonard was "in the ring with a crowd" that period can't be claimed as out of the ring/inactive? You've argued endlessly that Leonards "simulated fights" are just sparring and count for nothing yet here you are claiming Leonard going some sparring rounds for the crowd virtually counts as a fight per ring rust?

Foreman looked bad for all the reasons already given to you. You are clutching at straws and every straw just happens to be a negative one.

Foreman had around double the size or worse layoff that he had ever had as a pro excepting for one easy fight.
Foreman was coming off a knockout loss.
Foreman was coming off a knockout loss against a top 5 heavyweight.
Foreman was a mental midget, losing his aura of invincibility against Ali did his head in. The evidence is countless.
Lyle was a dangerous heavyweight against any guy standing in front of him and exchanging.
Lyle could come back for dark places on the mat and come back to win.
Foreman was transitioning into a more conservative style.

All of these factors contributed to a back and forth war.

Bottom line - With numerous factors against him Foreman showed he could come back from the depths of despair and leave an opponent senseless - Foreman won the fight. despite facing a mountain of intangibles.

 

The modern fighter example is a good point Foreman isn’t a modern fighter - I do assume he wasn’t structuring his training like the guys now but it’s just it doesn’t make that much difference?
if GF had a hard camp that’s enough, that’s the hill I die on, fighters today have long lay offs then they come back and get sharp they don’t forget to box if they've done it a long time.

Moore, Clancy etc whoever was around him knew fighters and they’d know how to get him “sharp” for the fight - it’s how it’s always been and how it is now - if you since can’t get your “Johnny Paycheks” you spar hard, get used to being hit, get your weight right and your timing together that’s all that’s needed.

Having a “tune up” the only difference would be time under the lights and a second camp, the camp is the important part not fighting a bunch of “Johnny Paychecks” old pros fight those sorts of guys frequently to get paid to get sharp because paying for sparring partners takes away from the purse.

In summary whether you fight 3 JP’s in a month or spar 30 hard rounds (usually with better guys) it’s the same thing (almost) it’s not because of the magical intangibles of being on a cards ring though your record / ego is on the line and you’re under the lights - that’s it and I’m positive Leonard, Foreman and Ali (whoever with ring rust) are long term enough established pros who aren’t shy to the crowd or historically break under the lights they didn’t need to fight JP - he fought Lyle because he was ready to fight Lyle.

 

You assume so many things and, just by chance, almost every one of them happen to be negative and in full support of the Foreman agenda.

What you've basically said above is that ring rust isn't real and you are happy to die on that hill. It will be a very sparsely inhabited hill let me say that much.

Foreman said himself "i had a lot of rust on me". If it was a Foreman opponent i have no doubt you'd readily accept that.

Sounds like you have it all worked out.

 

I’ve said many times that Ring Rust is real so stop it lol that it applies better to your prospects and newer fighters, not guys who haven’t fought in a year (which ain’t uncommon) the important part is the camp not how many rounds you’ve done in a fight. The new developing guys need the exposure under the lights (used to a crowd, event, pressure etc) (see Tyson and Toney’s early career) Foreman was a former world champion and like Canelo he can take some time off and go back to fighting (it wasn’t 3 years etc though Leonard did pretty good by sparring hard and fighting after 3 years) his skill set was there, developed already in a real fight environment - the camp is for your timing, getting used to being hit and insuring your weights right.

EDIT: Yeah I’ve got it worked out, hard sparring in camp gets you sharp for your first fight back LOL.

 

Ok, ring rust is only real/believable for "prospects and newer fighters".

 

Missed a bit - / unestablished pros or after a very long lay off.

 

What is a very long layoff? 16 months lol? Also, why does sparring in the ring with a crowd count as a fight? I assume that's sorta what you implied.

 

Already answered this, didn’t call it a fight it’s an exhibition - books are closed JT, it’s all already here for you.

 

Yes, I previously highlighted and isolated his impractical and narrowly applied acknowledgement of ring rust vs the actual and obviously broader application of the concept and its ramifications across the board.

So, an actual 15 months without real fights gets diminished to 12 months - just another err on the side of the pre disposed argument.

The Toronto 5 was a circus - it did more harm
than good.

Relative to his last fight in Zaire, Foreman came in 10 lbs heavier for that farce - but never mind that being just one of several proofs of his lack of ideal preparedness.

Another proof? Foreman also admitted that he was gassed after just the first 3 round bout. But again, even that fact won’t disrupt a pre med agenda that includes making the false claim that Foreman was good as ever was.

Several times I asked for evidence of the assumed training/hard sparring that Foreman did to keep him fine tuned going into the Lyle fight - but I got nothing.

Now the “answer” is - “Well, I don’t know what Foreman’s training was during the interim”???

 

I'm a little slow. You called it an exhibition?

 

Perhaps only sparring is needed if you are named "George Foreman".

 

Foreman’s ability to slug is drawn from the whole body of his first career work. That he made short work of guy intending/trying to go punch for punch with, a highly reputable slugger in one Joe Frazier, doesn’t take from Foreman’s demonstrated slugging ability.

Suffice to say, poor old Joe, absolutely going against grain, knew not to try and slug with Foreman in their rematch. No one else made Joe so drastically alter his usual and preferred game.

Foreman fell to the deck in the last round against Young, primarily due to exhaustion. That’s hardly analogous to a KD during a slugfest, engaged from first bell.

Yes, Ali KO’d Foreman but certainly not by way of slugging with George - slugging being the key word and the actual crux of the premise here.

Ali also stopped/KO’d a few others that were either never stopped/KO’d or rarely stopped/KO’d otherwise…and of course, even with the addendum of Foreman’s second career - Ali still remained the ONLY man to stop/KO George.

 

Yeah, for some, it seems the name “Foreman” attracts the application of some highly unique, and pointedly customised standards in order to bring Big George down.

That type of analysis requires the suspension of quite a few realities that are acceptable and broadly applied otherwise……just not in specially coated, “Rust Free” Foreman’s case.

 

Clancy was apparently seen buying multiple cans. Tho no proof was ever captured there were rumors in certain circles that there was a hissing sound (followed by an odd smell) coming from Foreman's corner every time they appeared to be pouring water on him.

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After this up close interview Cosell was noted to be walking freer than he had in years. Foreman even mentions "rusty". He actually mentions this all the way thru the interview.

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