Could anyone out slug young Foreman?

In his book Box like the Pros (which I have a physical copy of), Joe Frazier states that the jab should always precede the left hook and set it up. If Frazier is doing all his work with his weight on the front foot, that includes his jab too. Jabbing like this whilst going forward can actually set up a left hook perfectly, because your right foot has to 'catch' your weight (for lack of a better term) after jabbing and acts almost like a spring, which would actually set up the begining left hook motion JM is debating. You see Jose Napoles do exactly the same thing on film - and no one would accuse him of being an improper technician. I think @Journeyman92 is forgetting that Frazier fought with constant momentum and therefore constant weight shifts. He's not literally standing still and throwing a left hook.

Also, in Frazier's book his advice about throwing the left hook is very similar to Louis'. I'm not sure why there's even an argument about this to be honest.

 

Yellow RD it’s cool you’ve got a physical copy of his book btw that was I think the first one I read (PDF) reading the workout routine made me wonder how he did dips with his weird left elbow… anyways I think you’re mistaken but it’s just my 0.2$ and I think I’ve pretty clearly laid it out, I haven’t forgotten anything (who can say lol) and I know what I’ve read, seen and have been told on just this subject. Not sure exactly what you’re describing but I was taught it was never a good idea to jab that way if I understand you, jabbing that way means you’d need to rock back to throw a right hand and that was Ike Quartey’s issue (and why his jab was so hard) it also brings you closer to the other guys right hand (an issue Frazier had with how he threw his hook too) again 0.2$ but factually if your weight isn’t going lead foot to rear foot it isn’t a proper hook.

 

What I'm saying is the Joe Frazier did get that activation with the rear foot a lot of the time. If your weight is predisposed to your front foot (as a Frazier's would be due to his style) then when you jab whilst moving forward, your front foot comes off the floor. When this happens, the right foot 'catches' your weight and sets you up well for a left hook. Again, Napoles used to do it. His bout with Lopez is a good example of this hooking off the jab (forward motion). This is actually beneficial to Frazier imo as he had a bobbing and weaving style. There is nothing wrong with Frazier's left hook imo - this would actually be one of the very few technical details I would disagree with Pat on (if that is what Pat meant, I can't be bothered to go through a while other thread, especially since he himself is not actually posting here. This is not a slight to him).

Also, this is what Frazier himself has to say about the left hook, from the same book, quote copied from Mcgrains thread (for context, this part in the book is precede by Frazier already discussing stances and weight distribution, in which Joe always recommends a 50/50 stance, in case you wanna be finicky):

 

Being front foot heavy and bending over at the waist etc isn’t really a style to emulate it isn’t “proper” and creates the issues I’ve discussed… When you hook off the jab usually… you shoot your jab, step let the weight settle ( just a second) and make sure you’re bringing the rear foot with you so you can transfer the weight, RD you’re transferring the weight backwards to your rear foot it’s a good hook… you can throw a bad hook and still hook off the jab - if Frazier throws his hook (to summarise) “leaning forward and to the left then anchoring the foot and driving from it” you’re not transferring the weight, the pivotal point becomes …your lead leg… you’re not able to whip it “through” it’s an at the target shot because the “through” comes from your weight being pulled back to the rear leg. you know I respect your opinion, I am sticking to my guns on this Frazier threw it wrong he is in not comparable to Napoles in this regard I encourage you to instead argue why “Big” Toney would be the best HW in the 60s (if Ali was absent) in my coming thread instead good day to you my friend.

 

I don't think you two are as far apart in your opinion as you think. It's hard to describe a punch in writing so it's easy to confuse what you mean. If you were in the same room and both of you demonstrated how to throw the hook, it would probably be similar if not the same. I have said that IMO if a fighter throws a hook and leaves his weight on the front foot it is a bent arm jab. I don't think Joe Frazier did that. I think he got a good weight transfer behind his hook. I can understand why people might think that he didn't because of the well known pictures from the first Ali fight where JF is reaching with the long hook and it looks front foot based, but there are lots of examples of JF throwing shorter hooks inside and he is transferring his weight.

 

I’m going to mostly stay with my stance on this Pat. I don’t agree totally but I will always respect your opinion regardless as we’ve talked plenty.
I will shift my belief that at least he let his hook get wide off his front foot when he wasn’t inside and it’s why his right hand suffered.

 

On a serious note, how do we define “out slug” here? Does it mean taking George’s leather and dishing it right back, or does it mean staying in the pocket and being able to counter him effectively? For the latter I’d pick Louis, maybe even Sullivan and Jeffries but that’s mostly speculation based on how their styles sounded.

 

I do wonder if we can argue that Ali 'outslugged' him...he took all George hit him with and returned fire throughout.

 

I think Ali was winning but he took a lot of punishment to do so...

 

Can I take Joe Joyce and Chisora?

 

Joyce is as slow as F but he's incredibly durable and he can go all night. Foreman in my opinion would be at a disadvantage if he tried to go blow for blow with Joyce.

 

I understand what you mean, Ali was right there in front of GF, but I never thought Ali took much punishment. You can see Ali being interviewed after the fight and he doesn't have a mark on him. He does mention that GF thumbed him in the right eye, he also tells the interviewer that GF can't punch and has no power. Go to about the one hour mark.

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Ali took a few clean shots in the earlier rounds but he did a good job of protecting his chin and temple, vital spots.

Ofcourse Foreman was distaining all defense for the most part. Ali was punching in between Foreman's rushes. They were clean and straight down the pipe.

One thing Ali didnt do was crouch into any uppercuts. He leaned back, away from George's clubs. Its no secret that Foreman fought a horrible fight. No poise at all.

 

I don't think he took many head shots, but he took a beating to the body.

 

Ali had beaten him before the bell. Fighting angry is never a good move, and it showed