Jones Jr v Golovkin At Middleweight

The Jones who fought a green, never fought anyone of any note, 22-1, 16 stoppages (two stoppages against 1 star opponents, one against a 2 star, rest vs 0 star) Hopkins at MW, winning 8-4 on all cards:

121-13 amateur record, 21-0 (20 inside the distance) as a pro, 24 years old, world title debut, only been past the 8th round once, going the 10 round distance against future WBA middleweight titlist Jorge Castro, who was his best opponent at this point and he'd failed to win a title previously at super-welterweight.

MW Jones didn't have Canelo's defensive skill, he carried a shaky chin and he didn't have anything like his experience either. I don't see him surviving 12 rounds in a 20 foot ring with a prime Golovkin.

 

Roy had already beaten Jorge Castro the previous year.

The year he fought Hopkins, he also knocked out Thulani Malinga.

The following year, he beat James Toney at a higher weight.

So even the Hopkins version of Roy was good enough to have beaten GGG.

And despite his ranking at the time, you can just watch the fight with Roy, to see how good Hopkins was, even at that stage.

Castro, Malinga and Hopkins, would all have been top 5 wins for GGG at MW.

Canelo didn’t have a better defence at all. He couldn’t win a round off of Floyd, and he barely beat Lara and Trout back then. Canelo just had a more conventional defence.

He didn’t have a shaky chin at MW.

Roy wouldn’t have survived GGG?

Hilarious.

He easily beat Hopkins and Toney, yet he wouldn’t have survived against a slower, smaller guy, who could barely beat Danny Jacobs?

Yeah.

That’s perfectly logical.

 

Roy Jones started his career off vs Stephan Johnson in his SECOND fight and Johnson was a very good pro who unfortunately lost his life in the ring.
Roy Jones met Percy Harris who had fought and gone the distance with Bernard Hopkins and had given Lamar Parks absolute hell and Jones crushed him.
The only fighter who ever stopped Maligna when Maligna was in his prime was Roy Jones and he did it very easily.

 

Love triple G but Jones wins this

I feel GGG was a wasted talent a little bit but that wasn't really his fault.. a lot of Fighters avoided him.. Martinez, Cotto, even Canelo for a while.. even the Pirog one fell through..

He probably should have tried SMW.

 

Jones was an elite boxer, no question. But Stephan Johnson weighed 141 lbs 15 months prior, losing to a 5-14-2 journeyman. He lost to an 8-2 fighter at welterweight a year prior to fighting Jones. He had no wins of any note and was scraping SD's/MD's against nobodies. The much naturally bigger, star amateur Jones stopped this undersized green journeyman in the 8th round of his 2nd pro fight. I don't regard this as being amazing or even impressive.

Percy Harris and Maligna weren't middleweight fights so they are of less relevance. The best/toughest men he fought at MW were Castro and a green Hopkins.

 

Percy Harris was most certainly a middleweight and even fought middleweight contenders.
First stop with the BS reading box rec and then try to pretend you have an opinion based on observation and not just reading stats.
Stephan Johnson was a solid world class boxer but was never an elite boxer. He was a pros pro.
He lost to Philly Mike Brown who was as tough as they come and in all honesty Johnson should have never met someone that seasoned that early in his career.
Then Johnson lost to future welterweight contender Kevin Pompey by decision no disgrace in that.
Johnson weighed in at 152lbs and Jones weighted in at 155lbs. 3 pounds is not a "huge" difference.
This was Jones 2nd bout and Johnson's 11th pro bout and it was scheduled for 8 rounds.
And Jones became the only boxer to stop Johnson at that time.
You are correct that Malignant vs Jones was not at super middleweight.
Thomas Tate was the boxer that Jones fought in his title defense of the title. And Jones became the only boxer to stop Tate.

 

I'm glad you brought up Thomas Tate that win doesn't get enough credit.

Tate went 12 very competitive rounds with Julian Jackson and took his best punches for someone to go the distance with Jackson is an incredible feat. RJJ basically dismantled Tate in 2 rounds and made him look like nothing.....

Again this is a Tate that was also never stopped in his career and that's the thing RJJ was making good opponents look very bad and he did it consistently for a decade without barely losing a round.

 

In all honesty its because I thought it was at super middleweight. I had forgot it was at middleweight.

 

"Stephan Johnson was a solid world class boxer"

We'll have to agree to differ.

 

On what planet are they not relevant?

He fought them whilst he was still at MW.

Malinga had given Benn and Eubank tough fights.

You’re seriously telling me that a man who could dispose of Malinga with ease, was too green to have beaten GGG?

And when he’d beaten Castro and Hopkins too?

Ridiculous.

 

No. What RJJ has experienced is guys with worse footwork than Golovkin and they forced him to exchange anyway.

Wow, really? How many title defences at 160 had they made when they fought Roy? Anything less than 21 makes me think that your statement is wrong.

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879 punches. An AI punchstat counter had it at ~950 GGG punches thrown. RJJ never fought at that pace. He'd blow his arse out trying. Roy barely managed to top 500 against a version of Hopkins that hadn't achieved anything of note yet. Golovkin throwing around 900 punches a fight would be an out of context problem for him.

Correct. Deal with it.

**** hell yeah he does. Lemieux punches even harder than Golovkin himself, possibly.

Reminder:

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YDKSAB if that's your take. Lemieux didn't have RJJ speed or accuracy perhaps, but God put the touch of sleep in his fists:

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That's your opinion. Meanwhile:

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Golovkin took his power, he wouldn't have a problem with Jones' power. What Jones has is sheer speed. And I think that in the deep rounds, when GGG has forced him to work every second and crumpled his body a bit, that speed will wear off, those reflexes will dull, and Roy's glass chin is going to be burst like grandma's vase falling off the top shelf.

Yeah, yeah you're right, Lou woulda collapsed a stadium with his punches. Bin Laden could have saved much trouble and just got Lou to punch the Trade Centre.

 

I never said that Golovkin would knock him out "easily". It would be at the end of a gruelling fight. I have no illusions that it would be "easy". I guess that when the KO came it might look easy, but it would be at the end of a long struggle.

Meanwhile in the real world

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He was with Brook. And Golovkin didn't mind taking a shot if it meant that he could land his own. If RJJ and GGG swap punches, there's one guy who has more power and a harder chin, and it sure as **** aint Jones.

Meanwhile:

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Gee, do I also get to pick a prime version of Golovkin? Because you keep on bringing up fights from when he was 34, 35, 36 + years old.

Golovkin is better than all of those.

What don't you understand about the fact that you are talking about an old version of Golovkin?

By you.

Are you saying that beating a greenish Hopkins isn't the same as beating a seasoned Hopkins?

Ah, but you did check and you realised that you blew it.

Correct. Golovkin is a boxer with crushing power. Not a power puncher. He has always done best when boxing. That's the point. Jones would do better against an aggressive fighter getting off balance and trying to bumrush him. Jones would do worse against a measured fighter with an ATG jab cutting the ring off him and using his footwork to negate Jones' rushes of speed.

Show me.

It would help your case far more if there weren't videos like this circulating about Jones' chin:

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That Enzo KO was goddamn theatrical.

In actuality, Golovkin's 21 title defences prove that he was "more proven". The only thing that is proven is that Roy's chin is way worse than Golovkin's.

 

Also just to add.

Alot felt Malinga beat Benn in their 1st meeting that fight was considered a bit of a gift decision for Benn. Malinga also dethroned an undefeated Robin Reid after losing to RJJ and this was when Malinga was aged 40.

Castro would go on to become Middleweight champion and beat the highly skilled Reggie Johnson x2 and also John David Jackson.

Tate prior to the RJJ fight just 1 year before had gone 12 very competitive rounds with Julian Jackson when he was champion and again Tate was only ever stopped legitimately once in his entire career by RJJ.

Hopkins doesn't need any introduction.

Pretty much all of these names would be amongst Golovkin's top 10 wins at Middleweight so i don't see how they are irrelevant when all of these fighters were competing at world level when RJJ beat them.

 

BCS8,


You have hardly given me anything to reply to here.

It's just tit for tat nonsense.

However, you did respond, so I'll do you the courtesy of replying.

Roy has experienced more styles of footwork, across a lot more divisions.

My statement isn't wrong. They didn't need to have had the same number of title defences. Because back in the real world, we don't just compare numbers without allowing for context.

GGG never proved himself to be a better fighter than the likes of Toney and Hopkins.

I'll eagerly await your response to this, where you'll no doubt be telling me that Toney was inferior, with a nice YT clip of the Tiberi fight. (yes, you're that predictable)

Well, that 30 second clip of the rematch has really shut me down hasn't it.

I guess I'll have to retract my initial statement now.

That WHOLE 30 seconds sure proved me wrong.

Roy never had to fight at that pace. You can ask yourself why.

You're also making a huge assumption that GGG would have pushed him hard, when he's literally never seen that kind of speed and style before.

The punch stats of Roy's opponents used to change when they fought him, as he made them cautious.

It doesn't matter if Hopkins hadn't achieved anything. You can still see what a good fighter he was, by simply watching his fight with Roy, as well as his subsequent ones.

Your favourite catchphrase.

The only thing that I have to deal with, is your illogical nonsense.

This is the kind of thing that I love. It really amuses me. If Roy had fought David Lemiuex, he'd have been a nobody. But because GGG fought him, you have to try build him into something special.

All fighters of any level deserve respect. So I don't want to disrespect anybody. But like I said, David Lemiuex was a B level fighter, if not a C level fighter.

He had more power than Roy?

Roy knocked out guys at three different weights.

Perhaps? Ha!

You're a comedian.

Ha!

So: I said that a win over Lemiueux, wouldn't have been in Roy's top 10 wins.

Yet to try and prove me wrong, you've posted a clip of Lemiuex knocking out Spike O'Sullivan??

Another B-C level guy, who Eubank Jr knocked out?

Brilliant.

That's fine. That's your opinion. But like I keep saying, it isn't really based on anything apart from your emotion.

It's an opinion that carries no weight. Simply because we've never seen GGG beat anyone of Roy's style or calibre, and we've seen him struggle with much lesser fighters.

More sarcasm.

Yet I literally said the following:

Nobody has said that Del Valle was great, and a great puncher.

However, he was clearly a decent puncher, if you possess knowledge of him, and he caught Roy up at LHW, where he weighed in the 180's.

 

BCS8,


Again, this is just more tit for tat stuff.

There's nothing of any substance to really debate.

So it's probably for the best if we leave it here, after I've responded to you.

Okay.

That's fair enough.

Again, I don't know what it's based off, but it's cool.

I initially said that I didn't need to see highlight videos of GGG showing good defence against low level fighters, when I can just rewatch the other fights that I mentioned.

Yet to counter that, you've posted me more highlights against another low level fighter?

I think it's debatable if GGG had more power.

Also, one guy is far more faster and more elusive.

We've already seen it.

Again, I'm sure that I could edit a video to show where Ricky Hatton had a decent defence.

But this is the exact issue with your opinion on how the fight would go.


Canelo, Derev and Jacobs were simply his best MW opponents.

We have nothing else other than those to go on.

So I have to highlight them.


This is why your opinion holds no weight.

What other evidence do we have??


Now, yeah, maybe he'd have crushed Jacobs 5 years earlier.

But then maybe the fight would have been just as difficult.

We simply don't know.


Apart from a long list of other, lesser B-C level guys, we have no other evidence.


Your evidence of a win for GGG, is mostly based off of those guys.


So again, GGG simply didn't fight or beat anyone in his prime years, for you to be certain that he'd have beaten Roy.

Again, GGG hasn't done anything to be regarded as being better than Hopkins and Toney.

You can bring up the Tiberi loss etc, but James beat McCallum, Nunn, Reggie, Littles and Jirov etc, across multiple divisions.

What don't you understand, about the fact that we haven't got much else to go on?

By any knowledgeable fan.

Roy would have been favoured.

By any metric.

Not guaranteed to have won.

Obviously.

But he'd have been favoured.

100%

I've never even implied that.

I didn't.

I said that I trusted what you'd typed.

This is based off of the huge assumption, that that 70" jab could get close to Roy and to cut off the ring.

Again, GGG has never seen that sort of speed, style and power in his life.

I've told you the fights to look at. And in full, not just a few highlight clips from certain stages of the fight.

My case is solid.

Yours is based upon knockouts against the likes of Enzo, when he was up at CW, at 46 years of age.

It's comical.

Ha!

His 21 defences?

Against who?

Mostly B-C level guys, where he struggled against his top 3 opponents.

Get real.


His MW defences don't trump the career of Roy, where he dominated better opposition, across multiple weight classes.


Yes, GGG had the better chin.

Okay.


However:

1. GGG won't fight into his 50's, way past his best, and up at the higher weights, taking fights that aren't suitable.

2. Him having a better chin wouldn't have been enough for him to have beaten Roy at his best.


It's been great debating you, but I think we should leave it there.

Unless of course, you want to debate anything specific, with some actual substance.


Thanks.