One of the most replaceable HW champs? Sonny Liston?

Well written. For the record, I usually spew that whole psychology schtick in an attempt to rile the general forum. My more intellectually honest opinion would be: when discussing exceptional individuals through the history of boxing, you ought to remember they were exceptional (meaning don't boil it down solely to lbs and inches.) On average and as a rule to divide the sport by—size is absolutely a reason to divide it by to avoid injuries, destroyed careers or even death. There are only so many Durans, Pacquiaos, Toneys, Tysons, Fraziers etc.

 

We toss out the jawlines and wrestling, keep the rats.

 

Buster Douglas caught "Lighting In A Bottle"...for one night...in Feb.1990...Then his his first defense...he's a fat stiff who gets his ass kicked against Holyfield!!! Lots of you "fans" have no idea when it comes to boxing history! Stunning!

 

I did understand the OP, just dont think you agree with my response, All good. AND TBH I dont agree with this either, at ALL. Monzon fighting so so guys, certaintly not Valdez and Griffith unless they are in the so so category for you. Also Monzon fought plenty big middles as well. But yes Monzon was a 2 pack a day cig smoker and accomplished what he did partly by being a gym rat ( road work, jumping rope, bag work, AND beating the **** outta of the vast number of sparring partners he went through as he kicked like a mule ). So NO , the list for other middles to do what Monzon did would be even shorter, maybe even zero because NO ONE was mentally tougher than Carlos. so now you are 0 for 2 including the Monzon hogwash.. also being that I rate Monzon even more so a H2H nightmare than Liston. He would be top 3 all time at middle, maybe even the GOAT, Hope I didnt derail your thread but you brought up Monzon, all good a cheers to you anyway

 

What drags Floyd down the most is his dodgy record with taking punches I reckon. You don't have to make much of a case for the likes of Tyson or Tua who were granite, but Patterson didn't really have that true heavyweight chin that would carry him through the following decades reliably. Ruiz is a modern short (his height is extremely stretched for marketing purpose) fighter who pretty much drew with Parker and in-shape (relatively speaking) upset Joshua, but he has that chin to spare, as did say Mercer who was barely any taller than Patterson, if more comfortably bulky. That being said, his fights are a good representation of what a shortie with immense handspeed could do to his opponent. Take it on the glove or slip and absolutely unload.

 

The first name that sprung to mind honestly , was Mr Wilder.
He's got that punch and proved against Fury he can dog fight.
He'd have a decent chance against Williams and co.

 

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For the record that's how Machen would look next to an Ali sized heavy.

 

This is the problem. That invalidates his amazing career. You're pretending he was an ok fighter who went nuts once. Thats just not true. Its a lie. A lie I tell you.

 

Because the highlight of Ortiz's career was probably beating the bang average Jennings after he managed to go the distance with a 39-year old Klitschko. The bang average Jennings who in my book would get destroyed by Sonny the way he walked forward with that high-guard. A knockout waiting to happen really, and Ortiz was the first to get him.

Still, Ortiz would get found extremely fast in the current era with Arab money fueling tough matches. When judged on a more all-time sale of boxing, he was chinny, slow-footed, hittable, and mediocre on the front-foot (more so than Zhang who is in many, many aspects a much superior representation of a similar style to Ortiz, and who would demolish Wilder twice back in 2018 and 2019 when Luis let his one big chance slip) and while clearly a thinking fighter with somewhat strong amateur background, he was prone to overthinking (even if it lead to some beautiful counters), couldn't press the action that well when needed and definitely not against another puncher with elite skillset, and while I don't typically chastise hands-low approach, it would really be a scary idea against Patterson. Floyd is not decimating him, and he absolutely can drop the fight (boxing is not a game of statistics, but a living, sprawling beast), but there were numerous pitfalls and patters he could exploit against Luis, and with his two-fisted power, accuracy, handspeed, and combinations, he is not letting him off the hook.

Sonny Liston demolished Patterson (who is both better defensively and much more compact target than Ortiz's opposition like Jennings and Wilder) because he was a league more accurate than the Cuban, despite the aura of the island surrounding him, with their golden medals, and their amateur pedigree. Not to mention against targets more nimble and elusive than the ones Ortiz looked unimpressive against (Wilder against whom Fury was leagues more effective despite not being anything close to a front-foot fighter, Jennings at times.) Liston was present-minded, imposing, aided by an ATG jab, and in another realm as a finisher—when given the initiative he would throw those purposeful, cleverly adjusted combinations crashing with power, most of the shots, no slapping and fluff.

And yes J, I think Ortiz gasses and drops a decision against Eddie Machen. He would be one of the top contenders, but he would not be Sonny Liston.